Kickbooti
Ecclesia Militans
I can be agreeable. But if it turns bad I'm throwing Whomp under the bus 
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- Thread starter Bede
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To be honest, Whomp, I'm not so sure anymore. Giving them 600+ gold would fuel a lot of years of 100% research or quite a bit of expansion. I really think that is too much money to give. And, I'm not real excited about giving them 250 gold for CoL. We picked up 100+ gold from our failed Colossus attempt, and look what that has done for us! Do we really want to give them twice that? Plus, raising that much cash would mean we would have to turn the research slider completely off for a number of turns.
I'm leaning towards just forgetting the whole deal. But, I'd love to see what some other folks have to say first ...
I'm leaning towards just forgetting the whole deal. But, I'd love to see what some other folks have to say first ...
The more I think about this deal, the less I like it! We need to withdraw our offer. Giving them that much cash would be like installing a turbo charger on their economy while we bring ours to a screeching halt. It is a bad deal!
We are about a dozen turns from having CS. That will go a long way to solving a lot of our problems. Hopefully we can pick up Mathematics from the new civ that we meet. And Monarchy was a "nice to have" tech because of the wines at TC.
If we decide to do the 20% deal, the only thing we have to bargain with is Machinery. I would rather not trade that away this early. It is a key tech on the road to Caravels. And I would prefer to keep it close to the vest on how close we are on completing it.
Let's just stick with our game plan. We are not so bad off that we need to do lopsided deals.
We are about a dozen turns from having CS. That will go a long way to solving a lot of our problems. Hopefully we can pick up Mathematics from the new civ that we meet. And Monarchy was a "nice to have" tech because of the wines at TC.
If we decide to do the 20% deal, the only thing we have to bargain with is Machinery. I would rather not trade that away this early. It is a key tech on the road to Caravels. And I would prefer to keep it close to the vest on how close we are on completing it.
Let's just stick with our game plan. We are not so bad off that we need to do lopsided deals.
Well, they offered the tech deals as an incentive for open borders (if I read their previous message correctly). I would say just go back to the original plan, which was to extend the current peace deal.
After reviewing our OB discussions in the other thread, the consensus was heavily in favor of declining the agreement. It is one thing to give them OB as part of a bigger package, but I see no reason to give them OB by itself for free. Especially after that song and dance they did about how OB was more of a benefit to us than it was to them.Whomp said:
How do we want to answer this?
Though it might be a short term negative but they can't get through to explore. In the long run it may be to our benefit with another team's OBs.
Tubby Rower
Chronic Slacker
I'd still rather not open borders. But since I have been mildly inactive, I won't be upset if the more active players went ahead and opened them
Tubby Rower
Chronic Slacker
I can play the save if need be. I also understand the reasoning behind opening borders. Which is why I'm ok with it.
What's frustrating Whomp?
What's frustrating Whomp?
killercane
Deity
Sure open them for trade only.
Well the frustration comes from being a turnplayer as Conroe has been so kind to take over. Civ4, unlike civ3, needs more discussion. The reality is there's substantially more moving parts in this game and it helps when we have good discussions to understand our big picture path. I'm glad to see Sweet, Booti, 'Cane and you participate but I wonder if we need more people to add to the discussion. [/minor rant]
First off, the open borders question:
Whomp and Killercane vote 
I voted :thumbdown
Tubby voted either way
Looks to me like the aye's have it, so I will accept the agreement and go ahead and get the turn played.I voted :thumbdown
Tubby voted either way
I agree with Whomp on this one. I find the lack of discussion and planning to be highly frustrating. We've got 21 players on this team, and only a handful of people are participating in the discussion. This is my first demo game, so maybe this is normal. But it seems to me that we are playing with a handicap if the other teams are getting higher participation rates. Its like that old cliche: "two heads are better than one".
Tubby Rower
Chronic Slacker
I think that this is normal. Some of the teams in the ![[c3c]](/images/smilies/c3c.gif "Civ3 Conquests [c3c]")
MTDG only had 3 out of 20 participating at the end and some had even less. I think that team KISS got spoiled with high participation rates.
As I was telling Whomp via MSN, I think that a lot of people are hesitant to chime in when not sure of themselves.![[civ4]](/images/smilies/civ4.gif "Civ4 [civ4]")
has so many "right" paths that it makes it a little more difficult to make a "correct" decision for your chosen path. Some people might feel that they don't know enough to make statements. I am not one of them as I clearly don't know as well as many many many people, but I continue to blather on as if I did. Maybe that's not a good thing. But I take heart in a quote that I got from Bootilicious...." I might not be good, but I'm slow." 
MTDG only had 3 out of 20 participating at the end and some had even less. I think that team KISS got spoiled with high participation rates. As I was telling Whomp via MSN, I think that a lot of people are hesitant to chime in when not sure of themselves.
has so many "right" paths that it makes it a little more difficult to make a "correct" decision for your chosen path. Some people might feel that they don't know enough to make statements. I am not one of them as I clearly don't know as well as many many many people, but I continue to blather on as if I did. Maybe that's not a good thing. But I take heart in a quote that I got from Bootilicious...." I might not be good, but I'm slow." pindicator
Emperor
I'm always happy to chime in, but as I stated when I signed up I wouldn't have too much time to give to this. With the holidays, I'm sorry I haven't been around that much.
My opinion is to give them the borders. Either they're desperate for a friend or snakes in the grass from what I've read. And our best rationale for not opening borders is because we fear something we haven't thought of that may give them an advantage. Let's Open Borders and if it's true that there is something we didn't notice, we'll all have learned a nice lesson.
Edit: looked at the screenshots showing that we aren't exporting anything. Have we actually mapped out any trade routes to Epsilon? I know we've seen their cities, but if we haven't mapped out the trade route then that's why we wouldn't get anything from it.
My opinion is to give them the borders. Either they're desperate for a friend or snakes in the grass from what I've read. And our best rationale for not opening borders is because we fear something we haven't thought of that may give them an advantage. Let's Open Borders and if it's true that there is something we didn't notice, we'll all have learned a nice lesson.
Edit: looked at the screenshots showing that we aren't exporting anything. Have we actually mapped out any trade routes to Epsilon? I know we've seen their cities, but if we haven't mapped out the trade route then that's why we wouldn't get anything from it.
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