Internet wars

[Kyriakos]

Split from Hitro's thread...

I think this can be a topic by itself, what do you think the scope of internet wars will be in the future?

By IW i mean mostly hacking groups destroying large amounts of important webpages, for as long as possible.

Is it even practical as a means of damaging the "enemy"? Surely it is a guerrilla warfare, of high tech, so even a small group (of intelligent people) can in theory succeed in some part of such a plan. What if that group has access to funds, possibly under the backing of a foreign government? Is it at all possible that its efforts will amount to significant damage to the enemy country?

 

[Hitro]

Like I tried to tell you in that thread, it is not about websites with a certain top level domain being attacked. A "cyber-war" between, say, Germany and Greece, would not be about DDOS attacking .de and .gr websites the Anonymous style. It would be about attacking the infrastructure of the respective enemy via actual hacking of the systems that control this infrastructure.

Okay, in practical terms such a thing between Germany and Greece would never happen cause those two countries are way too intertwined.

As an actual example, say Israel vs. Iran. The point would not be to temporarily bring down the domains of, err, Haaretz or the Republican Guards. It would be to cause actual physical damage. By sabotaging important infrastructure and industry.

How exactly this is done is something nobody here will be able to or willing to tell you.

And yes, it is a practical means of damaging the enemy, cause it needs far less resources than, say, an intercontinental missiles program, a nuclear program and so on.

 

[BvBPL]

Destorying websites is nothing. The use of that worm in Iran to demonstrate the ability of internet hackers to disrupt actual physical machines is where it is at. Imagine if enemy hackers used the internet to damage power turbines or even something more mudane like turning all the street lights in LA to green at once. Serious disruptions are possible.

 

[Commodore]

Split from Hitro's thread...

I think this can be a topic by itself, what do you think the scope of internet wars will be in the future?

By IW i mean mostly hacking groups destroying large amounts of important webpages, for as long as possible.

Is it even practical as a means of damaging the "enemy"? Surely it is a guerrilla warfare, of high tech, so even a small group (of intelligent people) can in theory succeed in some part of such a plan. What if that group has access to funds, possibly under the backing of a foreign government? Is it at all possible that its efforts will amount to significant damage to the enemy country?

Of course it is a practical means of damaging one's enemies. As has already been stated, using cyberwarfare can completely shut down a modern nation's infrastructure, thus forcing them to capitulate before a shot has even been fired.

 

[bombshoo]

It's certainly becoming more important, and I guarantee we will only see it brought up more and more in coming years. Regardless, it's tough to say what is actually possible as no large scale attack has ever been successful. I imagine that defenses will continually improve, making it very difficult and risky and we'll reach a MAD type of scenario where no state dares launch a truly damaging attack unless they are sure they are going to be able to pull it off without the other side responding.

As far as I know, there is not any real comprehensive treaty on what even is cyberwarfare or when it's acceptable (akin to the CWC or something) but I wouldn't be shocked to see it pushed in coming years. It's probably not a bad idea, as I don't think doing something that would target civilians (like turning off the electricity to a hospital, or throwing off regulators in a nuclear plant to try to cause a melt down) should be seen as any different than any other method of warfare that does the same thing.

 

[Tahuti]

Destorying websites is nothing. The use of that worm in Iran to demonstrate the ability of internet hackers to disrupt actual physical machines is where it is at. Imagine if enemy hackers used the internet to damage power turbines or even something more mudane like turning all the street lights in LA to green at once. Serious disruptions are possible.

Stuxnet was probably inserted by intelligence as I doubt the Iranians would be as dumb to actually connect their nuclear program to the WWW. Likewise, why would want to connect power turbines to the WWW? So that the Illuminati can pull the plug at once should it be necessary?

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Why would you have such important stuff on a public network anyways?

I personally thougght a lot of the Wikileaks may not have happened if that information was stuck away on a computer in the corner of some locked room somewhere not connected to the internet.

 

[The_J]

Then an insider could still leak it via an USB device.
There's no way that you can prevent someone from circumventing a restriction.

Is it even practical as a means of damaging the "enemy"?

a) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia

b) Cyberwar is not about DDoSing something, it's about breaking into critical infrastructure and shutting it down (as well possible as addition to terrorist attacks).

How do you go to war or prepare to do it if suddenly
- Power plants at critical places shut down
- Water supply doesn't work anymore (http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2011/11/18/us-scada-infrastructure-woefully-unprotected/ )
- Phone network collapses
- Mobile phone network collapses
- The traffic system in big cities is shut down
- Stock exchange is shut down
- Airports don't work anymore
You don't.
That is cyberwar. Anonymus is in comparison total BS.

 

[civ_king]

Split from Hitro's thread...

I think this can be a topic by itself, what do you think the scope of internet wars will be in the future?

By IW i mean mostly hacking groups destroying large amounts of important webpages, for as long as possible.

Is it even practical as a means of damaging the "enemy"? Surely it is a guerrilla warfare, of high tech, so even a small group (of intelligent people) can in theory succeed in some part of such a plan. What if that group has access to funds, possibly under the backing of a foreign government? Is it at all possible that its efforts will amount to significant damage to the enemy country?

Break their power plants, cripple their radar and they are sitting ducks.

I thought this would be about things like the epic Youtube wars between Greece and FYROM