Interstellar travel?

Sure they do. When a game animal drops it might be in a thicket, or otherwise less accessible than it could be. Dragging it a few feet is beneficial, but can be hard to do. All it takes to "know the concept" of the wheel is to have steeped on a loose round stone.

The fashioning of a dedicated "wheel" and keeping it around for the purpose would come a whole lot later, but the use of the basic concept using readily available "natural tools" probably came right along with the lever and the inclined plane. And it was probably done all over the place.

Levers were easy to make, very strong if needed and versatile. Perfect choice for any ad hoc solution like game in a thicket or big stones for structures.

Wheels do need a solid enough flat enough ground. And for a car, you really need an axle (that is loaded with a lot of weight)
And it looks like that pottery wheels were earlier in use than cars with wheels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel
Which makes sense because of the load on the axle, that is less with pottery tables that are also vertical.
 
Levers were easy to make, very strong if needed and versatile. Perfect choice for any ad hoc solution like game in a thicket or big stones for structures.

Wheels do need a solid enough flat enough ground. And for a car, you really need an axle (that is loaded with a lot of weight)
And it looks like that pottery wheels were earlier in use than cars with wheels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel
Which makes sense because of the load on the axle, that is less with pottery tables that are also vertical.

Do you define a couple round sticks under an object you want to move as "wheels"?
 
Do you define a couple round sticks under an object you want to move as "wheels"?

no, I consider that as a kind of rolling device
A "wheel" needs for me some kind of an axle
Can be fixed on the wheel or the wheel rotates around it.
and for a car on imperfect roads you want the diameter of that wheel to be big enough, for big enough surface and to have a good angle to roll over imperfections instead of bumping against them, what you typical would have with round sticks.
 
no, I consider that as a kind of rolling device
A "wheel" needs for me some kind of an axle
Can be fixed on the wheel or the wheel rotates around it.
and for a car on imperfect roads you want the diameter of that wheel to be big enough, for big enough surface and to have a good angle to roll over imperfections instead of bumping against them, what you typical would have with round sticks.

Well, okay then. If you are going to call a "wheel" something distinctly different from a "roller" then I guess the "invention" comes ages later...though at that point I'd call it "development" more than invention.
 
Not only the inventors of the wheel, but people in general. Since an evolutionary point of view it makes sense. Intelligence developed along countless millennia while human were hunters-gatherers and only the smartest and agilest minds survived. Since agriculture developed and complex societies appeared, being smarter than others has nothing to do with the chance to reproduce. So, the peak was reached 5000 or 6000 years ago and now we are in a slow dumbing down process, as the wings of the dodo.
 
Well, okay then. If you are going to call a "wheel" something distinctly different from a "roller" then I guess the "invention" comes ages later...though at that point I'd call it "development" more than invention.

Agree
Recognising the rolling movement must have come first
No idea how long ago bows were used to rol sticks fast to drill
 
Exactly. Universe is huge in the 4 dimensions we know. We living things are tiny in the 4 dimensions and must coincide in space and time, which is highly unlikely, even if there are many of us. What if the the asteroid that destroyed the dinosaurs delayed evolution by 60 millions years and the galactic civilization boom already happened long ago and now we are late to the party.

Asteroid may have speed up evolution as well.

Even with a 60 million year time scale the problem is still there, right niow we have had a 50-60 year window to use things like Radio Telecsopes any other civilisation would have to be at a similar or more advanced level of tech in the galactic vicinity. Enough time has passed to be on the 3rd or 4 cycle of evolution assuming something evolves roughly at the same speed.

I'm sure there is more life out there, may not be sentient though. Might need an earthlike planet getting hit by an asteroid that is the exact right size in the exact right time getting hit in the exact right place as if the asteroid hit the ocean for example there would have been no world wide cataclysm. If the asteroid was a bit bigger no survivors, not big enough or hits the wrong spot it doesn't trigger the chain that lead t us.

IN 50 million years whats going to be left of us? Human bones somewhere as fossils yeah, maybe a fozzilized rubbish dump but everything we have built wont last on that type of time scale.
 
Consider that the wheel was never invented in South America, for 2 reasons.. IIRC.. The terrain and a lack of animals to pull anything with.

I'm not really sure which "side" this helps though

It seems very unlikely that the South Americans made their pyramids without using rollers...and humans never lack for "animals to pull anything with." They have never shown any hesitation about enslaving each other for whatever onerous tasks came to mind.
 
Consider that the wheel was never invented in South America, for 2 reasons.. IIRC.. The terrain and a lack of animals to pull anything with.

I'm not really sure which "side" this helps though

I thought the topic was done and dusted

But you raise an interesting point:
As the wheel seems to be earlier in use in the Middle East as pottery wheel, the car wheels some hundreds of years later (likely from archeological findings)

Why was the pottery wheel not invented in South America ?
 
Consider that the wheel was never invented in South America, for 2 reasons.. IIRC.. The terrain and a lack of animals to pull anything with.

I'm not really sure which "side" this helps though
The Aztec didnt have wheels either. Not one in the new world invented it afaik (maybe the Mayas?), and I am sure there is some flat terrain at some point between Alaska and Tierra del Fuego.
 
That's the futility argument.

Not quite futile - just that it's much easier to turn inward than to spread outward. And it's not clear to me, sitting here now, why spreading outward is really preferable. If it is actually possible to run universe simulations then logic would dictate it is more likely than not that our universe is a simulation being run by someone else.

IN 50 million years whats going to be left of us? Human bones somewhere as fossils yeah, maybe a fozzilized rubbish dump but everything we have built wont last on that type of time scale.

There will be way more human fossils than there "should" be, and they'll be found all over the place, reflecting our cosmopolitan distribution. More interestingly we're leaving behind all sorts of weird isopotic ratios that will still be clearly visible in Holocene strata 50M years in the future.
 
Not quite futile - just that it's much easier to turn inward than to spread outward. And it's not clear to me, sitting here now, why spreading outward is really preferable. If it is actually possible to run universe simulations then logic would dictate it is more likely than not that our universe is a simulation being run by someone else.



There will be way more human fossils than there "should" be, and they'll be found all over the place, reflecting our cosmopolitan distribution. More interestingly we're leaving behind all sorts of weird isopotic ratios that will still be clearly visible in Holocene strata 50M years in the future.

We are modern trilobites;). Assuming we don't make ourselves extinct but even if we do long term the atmosphere/Earth will recover and something will survive.
 
There is no faith involved. It is fairly easy to prove that entanglement cannot be used to transmit information faster than light.
Perhaps you underestimate where science can take us.

Wiki said:
According to some interpretations of quantum mechanics, the effect of one measurement occurs instantly. Other interpretations which don't recognize wavefunction collapse, dispute that there is any "effect" at all. After all, if the separation between two events is spacelike, then observers in different inertial frames will disagree about the order of events. Joe will see that the detection at point A occurred first, and could not have been caused by the measurement at point B, while Mary (moving at a different velocity) will be certain that the measurement at point B occurred first and could not have been caused by the A measurement. Of course both Joe and Mary are correct: there is no demonstrable cause and effect. However all interpretations agree that entanglement produces correlation between the measurements, and that the mutual information between the entangled particles can be exploited, but that any transmission of information at faster-than-light speeds is impossible.[9] [10]

In May 2018, researchers performed Bell test experiments in which further "loopholes" were closed.[11][12]

Entanglement is considered fundamental to quantum mechanics, even though it wasn't recognized in the beginning. Quantum entanglement has been demonstrated experimentally with photons,[13][14][15][16] neutrinos,[17]electrons,[18][19] molecules as large as buckyballs,[20][21] and even small diamonds.[22][23] The utilization of entanglement in communication and computation is a very active area of research.

Wiki is editable for a reason....and any thread that talks about interstellar travel with Dune and StarTrek as references, well, just because a TV show hasn't incorporated entanglement into its tech doesn't mean it won't be viable some day. So there!!! :p
 
The thing you bolded says that quantum entanglement can't be used for faster than light communication.

There might be another way to communicate faster than light, but quantum entanglement seems "right out" as far as a method is concerned

It seems very unlikely that the South Americans made their pyramids without using rollers...and humans never lack for "animals to pull anything with." They have never shown any hesitation about enslaving each other for whatever onerous tasks came to mind.

I mean, they probably did use trees for rolling purposes. But they didn't seem to have made a leap to turn this into wheels. And yeah, in the Americans not a lot of animals were domesticated, at least compared to the old world. From what I remember reading the locals just did not use animals to pull things over long distances at all, not until the Europeans arrived
 
Assuming we don't make ourselves extinct but even if we do long term the atmosphere/Earth will recover and something will survive.

It is quite a tall order to sterilize the Earth entirely, and even so I'm not convinced life wouldn't reform from organic chemicals at some point in the future. Might not be enough time for multicellular stuff to emerge again before the Sun freaks out though.
 
Perhaps you underestimate where science can take us.

Science can take us far, but not beyond mathematically proven theorems. Scientist working on quantum mechanics tend to make visionary claims where quantum mechanics could take us, but that is one of the claims they do not make. That claim crosses the line into the definitely unscientific.

Wiki is editable for a reason....and any thread that talks about interstellar travel with Dune and StarTrek as references, well, just because a TV show hasn't incorporated entanglement into its tech doesn't mean it won't be viable some day. So there!!! :p

The reason for all interpretations of quantum mechanics holding FTL communication to be impossible is that quantum mechanics itself says it is impossible. No interpretation can get around that (or alternatively would be immediately recognized as false if it did allow that).

There might be more breakthroughs that go beyond quantum mechanics that might allow for FTL communication and these might even explain entanglement. But entanglement itself cannot be used to do make FTL communications.

I am fine with speculation about future scientific advancements that would make things possible that seem impossible today. But I draw the line at ascribing magical properties to a scientific concept that has been proven to not have these magical properties.
 
All this discussions on finding developed civilizations by finding their radio signature asume that the extraterrestrials also live in a capitalistic growth based society i.e. the further developed the more emission. It is well possible that a society further developed than ours won't use more but less resources and those more efficient. This would also reduce their radio visibility if it is not their explicit aim to be found.
 
Remember, it's not an assumption that all of them do. It's merely a hope that at least some of them do. It's a question certainly worth the token investment we provide, considering the consequences of an answer.
 
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