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Into the Renaissance and Islam

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Lyoncet, Jul 10, 2012.

  1. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

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    So I've played 160 turns into Into the Renaissance as Saladin, and it's been pretty fun so far. I like that while everyone has the same set of VP conditions, some are more suited to certain styles of play. I figured that starting in Egypt I'd have easy access to both Jerusalem and Mecca and could just rack up points sitting on them and reaping the rewards of religion.

    The big problem I encountered is that Islam is horrendously terrible. The belief (Hajj, I think?) that gives 1 gold/4 followers is good, granted, but pretty much every other aspect of the religion just gives you extra faith. You get better missionaries too, but conversion is almost impossible because all the Christian nations hate you and won't sign open borders, and you don't want to convert them anyways because you'll lose the extra conquest points (which you'll need, since expanding peacefully and maintaining control of both holy cities left me in the middle of the pack until I knocked out Suleiman and a good third of the Byzantines). You get Mosques too, but they're mostly good for getting more faith that you can't do anything with. And then the Ayyubid's UB, the Madrassah, is just a university that gives you faith that you can't do anything with. I've been sitting on over 4,000 for most of the game after buying Mosques in all my natural cities and conquests – I get free courthouses so I just instantly annex and buy it – and there's just nothing to spend it on. And that's without even building Shinres (which get +2 faith that you can't do anything with) and Temples (which I think also get +2 faith that you can't do anything with). That means that not only am I ignoring faith for the most part, most of my beliefs aren't really doing anything, and my UB isn't either.

    Does anyone else get that feeling? I understand that they crafted the beliefs to represent the 5 Pillars of Islam, which is cool, but it just seems like it's really crappy compared to all the other religions. And that's way too bad, because religion is a central, even the central, element of that scenario, and what sets it apart. Also, the problem is exacerbated in that unlike the Christian nations there's really little chance that Protestantism will spread to your cities. It's good that they put in some of the really important Muslim nations, because not to do so would be ridiculous, but it seems like they spent very little effort on actually crafting their gameplay.

    Incidentally, I got the same impression from the Sassanids in Fall of Rome, which don't really seem to get VPs from anything but holding their capital, but still need to conquer a big chunk of Byzantium, probably including Constantinople, to get enough points to win. And whose UA doesn't do anything if they conquer because their happiness dips too low. Whereas all the other nations seem much better put together, although I haven't tried them all.
     
  2. Mesix

    Mesix The Allfather

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    You can buy great people with :c5faith:. Get a couple os GS to help with the :c5science: on this scenario or GE to rush a wonder or improve a :c5production: starved city.
     
  3. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

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    You can do that in Into the Renaissance? I thought the tech tree ended before Industrial. That would be nice news, but how consistently can you even get to that point in that scenario? With roughly 3/4 of the game complete, I haven't seen anyone pass Renaissance, and that's on Immortal. :sad:
     
  4. Mesix

    Mesix The Allfather

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    I think you can get GS for sure. They should be available with Rationalism opener in the Renaissance era. I haven't played with one of the Islam civs yet in the scenario. Only Catholic civs so far. The English Crusade achievement (to take Jerusalem on Monarch level) has been eluding me for the past couple of days.

    There isn't enough :c5faith: for the Catholic civs. I end of spending all my :c5faith: on units early on. It take awhile to earn it back.
     
  5. ggmoyang

    ggmoyang King

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    You enter industrial era when you researched all the techs.
    So there is no sense buying GS thereafter.

    BTW it helps with war against Catholics. You can settle near them or capture one of their city and buy units with faith.

    Or with Saladin you can buy mosques for captured cities, since you can annex them with free courthouse.
     
  6. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    try having fun and converting the Catholic lands - that'll mess up the Protestant spread quite well.

    Or, gain a catholic city and mass faith spam units from it.
     
  7. Mesix

    Mesix The Allfather

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    Do you need to be in the Industrial era? I thought you only needed the appropriate social policy tree open. Rationalism is available in the Renaissance era (I generally open with astronomy which works well with this scenario since you need astronomy to get Exploration required for Caravels).
     
  8. ggmoyang

    ggmoyang King

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    Yes, you need to be in Industrial era to purchase GP with faith.
     
  9. Wuddel

    Wuddel Warlord

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    So the cities you conquer are orthodox? I am playing as the other muslims in the west (name eludes me), and spain and england convert all my cities to roman catholic and they have the holy warrior belief.
     
  10. MisterSaturnine

    MisterSaturnine Warlord

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    I don't think this is true. I know you can buy Great Merchants with the Commerce tree with faith pre-Industrial; I don't see why you couldn't do such things in this scenario.
     
  11. Nyanko

    Nyanko Prince

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    No. Its true. Take that from someone who took Commerce and tried to buy great merchants
     
  12. Prophet Skeram

    Prophet Skeram Chieftain

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    The major problem with Saladin is not Islam, it's your starting position:

    You start in Egypt with lots of leg room for cities, but only coastal cities are really worth it, that's why you'll need to stretch your empire around North Africa.

    On the other hand, you'll want Jerusalem and Mecca aswell to get some victory points, so far so good.

    Where it gets annoying is that you basically HAVE TO conquer christian cities in order to have a chance at winning.

    But the Ottomans are completely in the way of things and insane amounts of barb camps keep respawning in the dessert - so you have to beat the Ottomans first, then take Byzantinum (if you don't want to risk them sneak attacking you while you attack Spain or the Vatican) - while you also have to keep the barbs at bay.

    It's definitely doable, but it's an annoying starting position.
     
  13. Wuddel

    Wuddel Warlord

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    The barbs are really terrible with the Almohads (the guys in the west) as well. I guess the scenario is with raging barbs? You need in the order of 6 units to keep them at bay and need constant attention. Its probably better with Honor, but the Almohads lend themselfs extremely well for "cityspam". I founded like 10 new citys so my capitol was pumping out settlers and workers all the time. I had like 100 turns of build up. Now my VP have quadrupled after taking 3 spanish cities. Bringing me near the top at about 80 turns left. I think I will take this home ;) There might be room for improvement the next time. Like beelining Camel Archers and actually making contact to the other muslims early on to have someone to trade/RA with.
     
  14. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    No, the scenario is just really badly designed... You illustrate the points quite clearly: 1) no clear winning concept or one that needs you to go around other civs and travel vaste distances = micro-manage hell 2) annoying basic game tasks (the barbarians, building the empire from scratch up), 3) badly designed civs a la history > gameplay (faith being historically accurate somehow for Saladin, but not helping him at all in the scenario) and 4) badly transferred concepts (the city states electing the HRE). Also, the map is too huge.
     
  15. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

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    Some good info here. Thanks guys. Although I still stand by the thought that it's not well designed if you really have to wait until that late in the game to get any leverage out of so many aspects of your civ/religion. I do think it really sucks that you pretty much have to conquer the Turks as Saladin though, since they represent half of the civs that don't hate you on principle. Sure, you can launch a naval invasion of Byzantium (good luck dealing with those Dromon that early on...) but when I tried that strat Suleiman just backstabbed me and I had to put him down.

    On barbarians, I'm not sure if it's actually on raging barbs or if it's just a byproduct of being epic speed. It's a nuisance, but I found with a couple knights/Mamluks, you can pretty much clean then out - even the Pikemen. Since The Ayyubids, Almohads, and Turks all do well with conquest, taking Honor and then farming them for culture and cash isn't a bad way of doing things. Especially with Suleiman and Saladin, who want that extra XP and great general really quickly. The Almohads have more leisure for peaceful expansion before going axe-crazy.


    [edit]On the subject of poor routes to victory, I'm pretty sure I'm not getting any additional VP for holding Jerusalem and Mecca.
     
  16. Wuddel

    Wuddel Warlord

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    Well in normal Civ I play peaceful most of the time until I have to stop someone and/or I got modern units. So I I am used to economic games and wanted to get the extra gold. Now I can buy a unit every turn.

    You can always settle "peacefully" in southern Italy and build up there and just protect your capitol. Left side of commerce policies really help with that.

    That being said: The random map is WAY smaller.
     
  17. ggmoyang

    ggmoyang King

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    QFT.

    It was pain winning as Russia(for achievement), I have to deal with mass barbs, and the Mongols. After that I have to move my troops like 50tiles to attack someone with different religion.
     
  18. Mesix

    Mesix The Allfather

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    It isn't exactly a walk in the park to take Jerusalem as Elizabeth either.
     
  19. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Emperor

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    I played that scenario as Byzantium OCC on emperor and my suggestion is:
    (1) Rush navigation.
    (2) Build a fleet.
    (3) Attack all coastal cities with different religion and raze them.

    The biggest exploit in this scenario is probably the fact that you can get conquest points multiple times for each city. My fleet captured a city, enemy land units took it back while it was razed, I conquered it again and got additional victory points.

    So try using your fleet as an islamic civ.
     
  20. Prophet Skeram

    Prophet Skeram Chieftain

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    I actually really LOVE this scenario, this alone is worth the 30 € for G&K full price in my humble opinion.

    I love building up my empire for the first 100-120 turns, then rushing VPs by conquering cities. Yes, it's historically inacurate but having all cities set up would probably result in some frustration aswell.

    The raging barbs are an annoyance, but it gives you something to do while you build up your empire and you can make them (mostly) disappear by taking (almost) all their land - it's really satisfying when you wiped them between your cities and they can only spawn from the borders of your empire, where they are easily taken care of. :goodjob:

    And I absolutely LOVE the custom religion boni, units, buildings (with unique art aswell !) and the additional VP conditions like sending Caravels and Conquistators to the New World or winning the HRE election - special probs go to the excellent research tree and pacing (with new art AND voiceacting !), it really feels like you stay in your time period (which is a welcome change from "enjoy longswordman for 10 turns, then they get guns"), yet you always see the progress and it never gets stale or too "grindy".

    My only real gripes are the fact that:

    1. You (seemingly) can't upgrade tremes (which turns them into sacrificial lambs when better ships come around).

    2. You are basically forced to take part in the "Holy War" to even have a chance at winning.

    3. The scenario suffers from "civ scenario illness", meaning your chance at winning will differ immensly, depending on what civ you choose (Spain, Almuhads -> cakewalk, Ottomans, Byzantinum -> pretty easy, Austria/Saladin -> middle ground, England/Celts -> hard, Russia -> almost unwinnable).

    What I kind of like and dislike at the same time is how random the success of the other civs seems to be, even if you (seemingly) don't interfere at all:

    One game, Mongolia was the runaway-civ with tons of VC for taking out Russia and CS (?) or Byzantinum (?), the other, it was Austria, who won every round of HRE votes by a landslide (probably bought all the CS instead of marrying them).
     
    Makenshi likes this.

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