Iraq: Time to Partition?

The Yankee

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The option is not completely off the table. There is still the possibility that the national Iraqi government will be unable to muster the forces needed to shut down the groups fostering sectarian violence in Iraq.

There are two possibilities for Iraq if it were to be partitioned. Either give each of the three sections (between the Kurds, the Sunni Arabs, and the Shi'a Arabs) complete independence or place them in a loose confederation with a rather weak central government.

There are obvious problems that would come with such plans. First off, mixed areas such as Kirkuk and Baghdad would become great prizes and a great source of conflict between the three factions (perhaps moreso than they already are). The fight to clean out neighborhoods from mixed areas to homogeneous areas in Baghdad has already been well underway.

Additionally, there are two glaring problems that would come up, besides the fighting to gain those last bits of land. First, the Sunni Arab areas do not contain oil. The funds from the sale of oil would be greatly beneficial to rebuilding efforts across Iraq and the Sunni Arab area is unprepared to market itself on any other basis as of yet. Second, there is the Shi'a Arab enclave in Samarra where the al-Askariya Mosque stands (attacked twice already) as the burial place of two of the Shi'a Imams and it is also the site where the Mahdi, or the Hidden Imam, was said to have disappeared.

Further, one must also consider the regional implications of the plans. Iran would surely try to gain influence in the Shi'a Arab area, as usual. But the Sunni countries surrounding Iraq would also want to prop up their brethren in the area. Additionally, there is the tension that would undoubtedly rise between Kurdistan and Turkey should the Kurds gain any more political power.

On the other hand, maintaining a stronger national Iraqi government would lead to schemes to ensure that each side is equal (which ruffles the feathers of the Shi'a Arabs as the majority and of the Kurds, who would like to be left alone) and could be the target of any sectarian strife between the factions, accusing the other of using the national government to persecute those of their group.

So, should we further consider the possibility of partitioning Iraq, either within a confederation or as three countries? Or should we continue supporting the national Iraqi government?

As for myself, there are some benefits that I could see from the partition plan. That is, everyone would know where borders would lay. However, there might be a large movement of peoples across the borders to be with their own communities, reminiscent of the Indian partition, and as such, the potential for greater violence is certainly there. So considering everything, I am truly undecided as to the direction that should be taken vis a vis Iraq.

Note: This thread has nothing to do with arguments about whether the United States and its allies should have invaded or whether the UN had any say so in the run-up to the war or anything like that. This is about the future of Iraq, but with respect to some of the incidents that may have happened between the groups in the past, especially the Sunni Arab domination that continued through Saddam Hussein. We have plenty of other threads to debate what the politicians were arguing about in 2002 and 2003.
 
In the eyes of the UN, and the international community, it's off the table.

Eritrea was the last country that will ever be granted independence. That's it. Finished. Rightly or wrongly, that's just the way it's gonna go.

If you start partitioning Iraq, then you're gonna have all kinds of minority tribes all over the place looking for recognition and independence.
 
In the eyes of the UN, and the international community, it's off the table.

Eritrea was the last country that will ever be granted independence. That's it. Finished. Rightly or wrongly, that's just the way it's gonna go.

If you start partitioning Iraq, then you're gonna have all kinds of minority tribes all over the place looking for recognition and independence.

East Timor (or I think it's known as Timor-Leste now) was granted independence internationally recognized as independent a few years ago.

And I did neglect what might happen to the Christians, Turkomen, and others that have small communities in Iraq, many wedged between the borders of one of the three main groups. So what of them? Even if the national government stays in place.
 
In the eyes of the UN, and the international community, it's off the table.

Eritrea was the last country that will ever be granted independence. That's it. Finished. Rightly or wrongly, that's just the way it's gonna go.

If you start partitioning Iraq, then you're gonna have all kinds of minority tribes all over the place looking for recognition and independence.

Uh, East Timor?

And an independent Kurdistan would be instantly invaded and crushed by Turkey. It's not an option.
 
And an independent Kurdistan would be instantly invaded and crushed by Turkey. It's not an option.
You kidding? That's absolutely an option, because then we'll be able to liberate Constantinople from them.
 
Uh, East Timor?

And an independent Kurdistan would be instantly invaded and crushed by Turkey. It's not an option.

Would the US leave behind a force as a kind of "tripwire" against Turkey? Relations between the two have gone down since 2003....
 
If the Iraqi Government dont meet their deadlines to make stability in the region and no more sectarian violance happens. Then they will have to be Partition.
 
Would the US leave behind a force as a kind of "tripwire" against Turkey? Relations between the two have gone down since 2003....

I doubt it. Wouldn't the whole point of a partition be to split up warring factions so that the United States can withdraw completely? The purpose is defeated if you're required to leave a deterrent force large enough to spook Turkey.

The entire idea would destroy Turkey. If they invade, they risk war against the United States and possibly the EU, in which case they'd be completely annihilated. If they don't, they would completely destabilize internally and disintigrate into a civil war.

Stabilize Iraq at Turkey's expense? No thanks.
 
Last time a partition of large scale was done was in British India in 1947, resulting in the death of a million people, four wars and 300 nukes threatening the existance of a billion people. Partition have to be done very carefully to prevent history repeating itself, or don't partition at all.
 
In the eyes of the UN, and the international community, it's off the table.

Eritrea was the last country that will ever be granted independence. That's it. Finished. Rightly or wrongly, that's just the way it's gonna go.

If you start partitioning Iraq, then you're gonna have all kinds of minority tribes all over the place looking for recognition and independence.

Seriously?

Kosovo, despite how I don't want to admit it, will be taken away from Serbia- hopefully Russia will hold on though, losing Kosovo for serbs would be like California or Texas in the USA all of a sudden forcing independance because most of the people are mexican/hispanic. ( Although, they already are in many parts ) What would the US and it's people feel like if they had absolutely no say in stopping that sort of break off?

Oh wait, the US is the main pusher to take Kosovo away from the Serbs.
 
Seriously?

Kosovo, despite how I don't want to admit it, will be taken away from Serbia- hopefully Russia will hold on though, losing Kosovo for serbs would be like California or Texas in the USA all of a sudden forcing independance because most of the people are mexican/hispanic. ( Although, they already are in many parts ) What would the US and it's people feel like if they had absolutely no say in stopping that sort of break off?

Oh wait, the US is the main pusher to take Kosovo away from the Serbs.

The United States doesn't ethnically cleanse its Hispanic citizens.
 
Must have been my ESP skills:

Col. Jack Jacobs on MSNBC said:
link

Dividing Iraq won't work
Separating the Shia, Sunni and Kurds will only make a bigger mess

COMMENTARY
By Jack Jacobs
Military analyst
MSNBC
Updated: 11:29 a.m. ET July 8, 2007

Senator Joseph Biden, Democrat of Delaware, is a candidate for president and is fighting a steep, uphill battle against the well-lubricated machines of Bill & Hillary Incorporated and Barack Obama. Every politician, whether odds-on favorite or long-shot, says he’s in it to win, and Biden is no exception, but his chances of getting the nomination are very low. Like most candidates of both parties, his only realistic objective is to become someone’s running mate.

For much of the recent past, Biden was known most famously as an accused plagiarist and one of the first public figures to receive a hair transplant. His quick and occasionally lame wit has also bathed him in unwanted limelight from time to time, as when he recently engendered much displeasure with the back-handed observation that Obama is “bright and clean and a nice-looking guy.”

His gaffes and checkered past notwithstanding, after more than 35 years in the Senate, Biden has developed into something of an eminence grise with attitude. For a politician with national ambitions, he is refreshingly gruff and opinionated, often wrong, it has been said, but never in doubt.

A vocal critic of the current strategy in Iraq, he has for some time been a champion of carving Iraq into three separate nations, or at least three mostly autonomous states within a larger Iraqi federation. Although from time to time others have suggested a similar solution to Iraq’s troubles (his partner in promulgating this plan has been the respected Leslie Gelb), Biden has been unique in his support of trifurcation. But now he has some company.

Last week, Edward Joseph of Johns Hopkins and Michael O’Hanlon of Brookings, two esteemed academicians, announced their support for the devolution of Iraq. But as unpleasant as the current situation is, chopping Iraq into three pieces is liable to make things uglier.

Superficially, the idea seems benign enough. There are three major ethnic or religious groups, and they roughly inhabit three geographical areas. The Shia are the majority of Iraqis, and they are generally in the south. The Sunni, Saddam’s sect, are mostly in the middle of the country. And the Kurds, semi-autonomous even under Saddam’s rule, are in the north. The Kurds aren’t even Arabs, and Sunni and Shia are killing each other by the thousands. Why not separate them?

First, none of the three regions is ethnically pure. To dilute Kurdish control, Saddam moved thousands of Arabs to the north. Shia and Sunni both inhabit Baghdad in large numbers, and the southern part of the country also has plenty from both sects. While supporters of the plan cite a desire of many Arabs to leave Kurdish lands, this is not the same thing as a universal Iraqi agreement to leave homes inhabited for decades—in some cases many decades—just to solve our problem in Iraq. Indeed, given the multi-sect demography of most of central Iraq, it is difficult to envision how the regions can be made ethnically pure without enormous violence. So, does the United States really want to be in the business of ethnic cleansing?

Second, devolution is not the answer to reducing American involvement, expenses and casualties in Iraq. If anything, there will be a much greater need for troops, money and time, things that are supposed to be conserved by chopping Iraq into three pieces. So casualties will go way up, not down.

Finally, we Americans can do a lot of things in Iraq, but there’s one thing we can’t do with any effectiveness: tell the Iraqis what to do. No more influential a figure than Moqtada al-Sadr is dead-set against federation, and his forces, supported by Iran and permitted to grow through the ineptitude of people like Paul Bremer, will insure that it will be created only at enormous cost.

And if civil war in Iraq isn’t exciting enough, if getting out of Iraq is worth any cost, including creating an even bloodier mess, consider this: There are Kurds in half a dozen countries, most of them in Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Syria. Restive and desirous of independence, Turkey’s Kurds have been a particular security problem. Making Iraqi Kurdistan even more independent than it is now is guaranteed to motivate Turkey to move forces into its own Kurdish lands to prevent the formation of a larger Kurdistan, and this will set the stage for a bloody regional war with many potential consequences, almost none of them good.

As in the Bible, the one with the most interest in carving up the baby is the one with the least interest in the baby.

He does make a good case against carving up Iraq, but regardless of what the UN might think, is keeping the British-drawn Iraq whole really the best long-term option?
 
Meh, forgot about East Timor, it had crossed my mind at the time too. Oh well. The basis remains the same. What happens to Kurdistan Turkey if you partition Iraq? Oh man, it would surely create a bloody mess.

And even if you do partition it, you will inevitably have wars for oil.
 
for the extremely long term its the best option, but people will die inmasse if done so... :sad:
 
For the extremely long term, it's best that people suck it up, accept their neighbors and open their doors to them, respect the value that religion has to other people, and get along with one another, share in one another, and help one another.

Carving up Iraq is hardly the best option for the very long term. It doesn't foster anything good. Instead of religious fights for oil within a country, you'll have nationstates waging war and sponsoring terrorism. At it's heart, it changes nothing. The problems we face now in Iraq will not go away by carving the country up.

This is the same reason why the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is so freakin stupid.
 
Rename it Kurdistan and let the Kurds run the whole country. Can't be any worse an outcome than what we've gotten from the British divisions in the early 20th century.
 
Is is wise to seperate among their different religious denominations and not some other way? I think this would polarize the Iraqi population even more so and increase anomisity towards the different denominations. This is an issue of Ferderalism and how to balance the powers. Would Shia give up power to be equal to the minorities? Why should the minorities get equal power? Same goes for the Sunni and Kurds.


A partition is difficult like other people said before. How should the land be split equally as I understand the most important resource are the oil fields.
Didnt Turkey say it would invade a possible Kurdistan inorder to suppress possible Kudish rebellions in Turkey?
 
i say we divide it all.

give baghdad to israel though. that'd be a lol.
 
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