Irony in history

[JIM JOIN JUMP]

U.S "help" Saddam to power then "help" removed him.

 

[Plotinus]

The initial goal of crusades was to help Byzantines, help eastern christians and halt the progress of muslims into christian lands.

This isn't exactly right. The First Crusade was fought in response to atrocities on the part of the Muslim authorities in Jerusalem against Christian pilgrims - it had nothing to do with either the Byzantine empire or halting the progress of Muslims into Christian lands, which had stopped anyway a long time previously.

 

[sydhe]

The First Crusade was partly in response to a request from the Byzantine Empire to recover lands lost after the battle of Manzikert, although it was a couple of decades after that battle. That's why the Crusaders returned lands in Asia Minor to the Byzantines. Of course, the motives of the Crusaders included freeing the pilgrimage routes and establishing their own states in the Holy Land.

 

[Rambuchan]

Class & Caste Ironies in History:

1) The British sought to impose their entrenched class system on India when it became theirs, with officer classes ruling over a melee of subordinated Hindus. What's ironic though is that they encountered a far older, more deeply entrenched, elaborate and seemingly unshakeable class system than their own in the Hindu Caste System. This got them into trouble a few times.

2) Dr Ambedkar, author of modern India's constitution, was responsible for converting millions of low caste Hindus to Buddhism in the last century. As an untouchable himself, he firmly believed that it was in their interests to 'leave Hinduism'. However, many of these new Buddhists soon found themselves falling foul of India's new positive discrimination quota systems, which sought to make spaces for low castes in govt, education, etc. It was Ambedkar himself who had campaigned for those quotas!

3) The same applies to low caste Hindus converting to Christianity. The Church urged them to convert and become 'equal in the eyes of god', shirking off their low caste, often untouchable label. However, many who did so found themselves not only missing out on the above quotas but they also received discriminatory treatment for not being any kind of Hindu!

Something I mentioned before..

The Prime Minister of India was born in Pakistan, the President of Pakistan, in India.

Jinnah, the founder of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, was married to a Parsi, knew very little Urdu and regularly enjoyed his bacon in the morning.

Yes, good one. Jinnah was also a famous whisky drinker, which didn't really gel too well with Pakistan's reason d'etre.

Both of India's nuclear tests (6 devices in total) happened on the same occasion separated by 25 years; birthday of the founder of Buddhism, Buddha Pournami.

Didn't know this bit of trivia, nice one.

 

[Plotinus]

3) The same applies to low caste Hindus converting to Christianity. The Church urged them to convert and become 'equal in the eyes of god', shirking off their low caste, often untouchable label. However, many who did so found themselves not only missing out on the above quotas but they also received discriminatory treatment for not being any kind of Hindu!

Interestingly, some churches (primarily the Catholic and Lutheran churches) didn't do this and retained the caste system, partly because they anticipated problems such as this. By the mid-nineteenth century, though, most churches had adopted the anti-caste position, in large part due to the influence of Daniel Wilson, who became Anglican bishop of Calcutta in 1832 and was vigorously opposed to the caste system, which he regarded as fundamentally unchristian.

Also, funnily, much of the anti-Christian discrimination came from the British authorities themselves, who in the first half of the nineteenth century were typically eager not to do anything that might annoy the Hindus (especially those in the army). For example, it was illegal for Protestant missionaries to try to convert Hindus until 1813, and even after that it was illegal for army chaplains to baptise sepoys. It was only in the later nineteenth century that Christianity became closely associated with colonialism in the mind of British officialdom.

 

[Nobody]

The Germans put leien into power then the soveit union torn germany apart.

 

[Squonk]

This isn't exactly right. The First Crusade was fought in response to atrocities on the part of the Muslim authorities in Jerusalem against Christian pilgrims - it had nothing to do with either the Byzantine empire or halting the progress of Muslims into Christian lands, which had stopped anyway a long time previously.

You're almost my idol here, and I'm sorry to disagree with You, for the first time.
As long as I know, first Michael VII Parakopines issued a plea to help to the pope, and later Alexius Komnenos asked for the same from the duke of Flandres, as long as I can remember.
That the crusade started a while after that, and after the Turkish progress into Anatoly, seems strange coincidence.
Also, the pope that preceded Urban II also issued a plea that dealed with this matter.

The battle of Mantzikert took place in 1071, which is 24 years before Clermont, which is not that "long ago" anyway, but Turkish progress was gradual, Antioch fell as late as at the beginning of the 80s, in 1082 I think, one year after Komnenos got the power and just 13 years before Clermont. In the eighties turkish emir of Smyrna, I think Chaka was his name, started raiding islands and european shores of Aegean sea. I do not have detailed information on when each city collapsed, and I don't know if we can check it anyway, the chronicles do not give us this information.

I don't claim the troubles of Byzantines were the only cause of the crusade, but were one of them.

 

[Plotinus]

Hope my mistake doesn't prevent you continuing to idolise me! But yes, of course you're right, the Byzantine empire was involved. However, it wasn't exactly Muslim advance that the Crusaders hoped to stop, but Turkish advance. The Turks had captured Jerusalem and the other cities from the Fatimids, who had typically adopted a more tolerant attitude towards Christian pilgrims - although these relations had deteriorated throughout the eleventh century anyway, even before the Turks took control of the Holy Places.

 

[Xshayathiya]

Alexander the Great attacked and destroyed the Persian Empire, but died an admirer of Persian culture/administrations.

anyone who invaded persia did. Alexander, the Arabs, the Mongols. Yes, we're just that good.

 

[allhailIndia]

At the height of the Indo-China Wars in 1962, when the Indian army was suffering serious losses and the Chinese army seemed ready to charge into the plains of India, Jawaharlal 'Non-alignment' Nehru, was willing to allow American aircraft to use Indian air bases to bomb the Chinese mainland in retaliation. Of course the Chinese offered a unilateral cease-fire, but ultimately a lot of 'holy cows' in India stood demonized, not least of all, Nehru himself.

 

[pacesplace]

Obvious one: Hitler wanted to avoid a two-front war in WWII by defeating France and the UK first. Before he was able to beat the UK, before even America joined, he decided against it because of its difficulty. He then went to war with the Soviets. Three years later, when the US and the UK, using territory left in the West, launched Operation Overlord, Hitler would pay for leaving opening a two-front war.

 

[Dreadnought]

US helped Saddam against Iran when we fought him 3 years later...

 

[Gallienus]

I find plenty of irony in the 1982 Falklands War.

Britain had spent the previous 15 years trying to offload the Falklands to Argentina, but each attempt was blocked by the islanders. Even Margaret Thatcher was forced to publicly back down after trying to negotiate an agreement with Argentina. Control of the islands was less valuble to Britain than a good diplomatic and trading relationship with Argentina

The military government of Argentina thought that Britain wanted Argentina to solve the problem by forcibly annexing the islands, but the result was nearly one thousand young men dying in a war fought for reasons of political prestige.

President Galtieri thought that making a big nationalistic issue out of the islands and then annexing them would boost his popularity with the Argentine people who were fed up with the human rights abuses and economic problems his rule had brought. The war ended up finishing off his government.

Meanwhile, Britain's Conservative government was deeply unpopular on the eve of the war because of its handling of the economy. Victory made the Conservatives so popular that they held on to power until 1997.

The sinking of the Belgrano was justified by its own captain.

 

[Plotinus]

I didn't know Thatcher had been trying to give the Falklands to Argentina. That's just ridiculous!

I don't think it was just victory over the Falklands that kept the Conservatives in power for the next fifteen years. Personally I attribute this to some kind of black magic and Satanic interference, but perhaps that's just me.

 

[Gallienus]

I'm sure the black magic played its part, along with the subliminal messages the BBC was broadcasting...

A couple of WWII ironies:

Mussolini ordered the Italian invasion of Greece because he was jealous of Hitler's military sucesses. He thought he could enhance his prestige with an easy victory over Greece, and he was anxious to do so before Germany could defeat Britain. Guess who ended up bailing the Italian forces out...

Britain and France put Czechoslovakia under intense pressure to cede to German territorial demands before the war in an attempt to maintain peace in Europe. The tanks seized from the Czech army were used in the blitzkrieg attack on France in 1940.

 

[Dreadnought]

When the Germans invaded Poland during WW2, they besieged Warsaw. The Polish commander defending Warsaw was name Rommel

 

[YNCS]

In 1940 a Spaniard named Juan Pujol was recruited as a spy by the German Abwehr. As soon as he got to England, he turned himself over to British counterintelligence and became a double agent. Pujol convinced the Germans that the Normandy D-Day Invasion was a feint, and the real invasion was to take place a couple of weeks later in the Pas de Calais area. For delivering this information the Germans awarded Pujol an Iron Cross First Class. He then explained to the Abwehr that since the Normandy fient was so successful, the Allies decided to support it and cancelled the Pas de Calais invasion. When the war was over the British made Pujol an Member of the Order of the British Empire. He is the only person I've ever heard of who was awarded medals by both sides for the same action

 

[Luckymoose]

In 1940 a Spaniard named Juan Pujol was recruited as a spy by the German Abwehr. As soon as he got to England, he turned himself over to British counterintelligence and became a double agent. Pujol convinced the Germans that the Normandy D-Day Invasion was a feint, and the real invasion was to take place a couple of weeks later in the Pas de Calais area. For delivering this information the Germans awarded Pujol an Iron Cross First Class. He then explained to the Abwehr that since the Normandy fient was so successful, the Allies decided to support it and cancelled the Pas de Calais invasion. When the war was over the British made Pujol an Member of the Order of the British Empire. He is the only person I've ever heard of who was awarded medals by both sides for the same action

Thats great.What a story he can tell his grandkids eh?

 

[QuoVadisNation]

I think the greatest irony in history is Israel itself. When the lot of the Hebrew population was forcibly displaced, one wouldn't really expect their resurgence to emerge after 1,650+ years. (and in spades!)

Granted, Christianity and Nero would also be a good example.

 

[mrtn]

In 1940 a Spaniard named Juan Pujol was recruited as a spy by the German Abwehr. As soon as he got to England, he turned himself over to British counterintelligence and became a double agent. Pujol convinced the Germans that the Normandy D-Day Invasion was a feint, and the real invasion was to take place a couple of weeks later in the Pas de Calais area. For delivering this information the Germans awarded Pujol an Iron Cross First Class. He then explained to the Abwehr that since the Normandy fient was so successful, the Allies decided to support it and cancelled the Pas de Calais invasion. When the war was over the British made Pujol an Member of the Order of the British Empire. He is the only person I've ever heard of who was awarded medals by both sides for the same action

Pujol was referred to with his spy name GARBO.
Anyone interested in this should look for the Masterman Report aka The Double-Cross System in the War of 1939 to 2945 written by J. C. Masterman.
He was working in something called "Section Twenty" during the war. Twenty is written as XX in Roman Numerals... Yes, that's a double cross.