Is any communist state inevitably producing a society of sovoks?

Domen

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The term was first used by Russian writer Aleksandr Zinovyev:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus

http://www.economist.com/node/21541444

Sovok was a product of Communist civilization.

This term is not offending any particular group (everyone can be turned into a sovok by proper brainwashing):

[Sovok is] someone characterized by the following:

- Indifference to the results of his labour (as expressed in the saying "They pretend they are paying us, and we pretend we are working").

- Lack of initiative and avoidance of taking any individual responsibility on anything.

- Indifference to common property and petty theft from the workplace, both for personal use and for profit.[2] A line from a popular song, "Everything belongs to the kolkhoz, everything belongs to me" ("всё теперь колхозное, всё теперь моё" vsyo teper kolkhoznoye, vsyo teper moyo), meaning that people on collective farms treasured all common property as their own, was sometimes used ironically to refer to instances of petty theft.

- Soviet Union's restrictions on travel abroad and strict censorship of information in the media (as well as the abundance of propaganda) with intent was to insulate the Soviet people from Western influence. As a result, "exotic" Western popular culture became more interesting precisely because it was forbidden. Soviet officials called this fascination "Western idolatry" (идолопоклонничество перед Западом idolopoklonnichestvo pered Zapadom).

- Obedience or passive acceptance of everything that government imposes on them (see authoritarianism).

- In the opinion of a former US ambassador to Kazakhstan, a tendency to drink heavily: "[a Kazakh defence minister] appears to enjoy loosening up in the tried and true Homo Sovieticus style – i.e., drinking oneself into a stupor."[3]

Fortunately, being a sovok is just a sickness of character - you can cure this.

But is a communist state / communist society which does not (as a side effect of its very existence) turn people into sovoks even possible?

Or maybe acquiring such typically sovok negative character traits is inevitable when living in a communist society?

What do you think? Especially I'm asking our ideological supporters of communism from this forum.
 
The first three are common in any workplace. I've experienced it when I worked as a laborer, at a supermarket and with the government. Personally, I see it rather more as a function of the boredom that comes with a lot of jobs; rather than as a function of any particular socioeconomic system. Interestingly, I haven't seen so much of the first one during my time working as an academic. The second though is hilariously common.
 
The first three are common in any workplace.

Maybe, but in capitalist states there exist such thing like private sector, private business, which promotes initiative and taking responsibility (enterpreneurship in general). Communist collectivization and nationalization of everything is killing these positive traits and producing indifference.

You usually don't work as well for the state, as you do for yourself.

And communism is by definition opposing the existence of private property (in the USSR there was time when they even abolished inheritances).
 
Domen said:
Maybe, but in capitalist states there exist such thing like private sector, private business, which promotes initiative and taking responsibility (enterpreneurship in general).
The reality is that there are relatively few entrepreneurs in the private sector.

Domen said:
You usually don't work as well for the state, than you do for yourself.
Who works for themselves nowadays? Hell I can't even figure out who owns most of the corporations I'm asked to look into.
 
Even in private sector most people dont work for themselves but for others.

Crosspost.
 
The reality is that there are relatively few entrepreneurs in the private sector.

But still enough to produce an advantage of capitalist economies over communist economies.

Even in private sector most people dont work for themselves but for others.

They work both for others and for themselves. And what in communist reality, where there is no private property?

Local self-governments are also superior (IMO) solutions to everything being centrally-planned and centrally-governed from one place.
 
In communist reality you work for the community. There is not private property nor state. All this theoretically since there is not actual examples of communist countries.

In socialist countries it is the same as everywhere else. You work to earn money and your employer is the state instead of some private company.

I have worked both for private sector and state and dont see any difference at all regarding workers motivations and such. It is the CEO who has the motivation to earn more money squeezing his workers. In any case i have seen more boredom, ressentiment and "sovokation" in private secor than working for the state where you have your status and rights well defined and have the sense of working for something important instead of making your employer even richer. That was my personal experience while working at private sector at least.
 
The term was first used by Russian writer Aleksandr Zinovyev:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus

http://www.economist.com/node/21541444

Sovok was a product of Communist civilization.

This term is not offending any particular group (everyone can be turned into a sovok by proper brainwashing):



Fortunately, being a sovok is just a sickness of character - you can cure this.

But is a communist state / communist society which does not (as a side effect of its very existence) turn people into sovoks even possible?

Or maybe acquiring such typically sovok negative character traits is inevitable when living in a communist society?

What do you think? Especially I'm asking our ideological supporters of communism from this forum.

In my opinion there were a number of things which contributed to the general feeling of indifference which arose in the late 1960s/early 1970s, culminating in the ultimate indifference: regime change. They all pretty generally relate to social policies, with the most notable (and in my opinion the most important) being that the communist ruling elite stopped cultivating the idea that society was going somewhere. The 1977 Soviet Constitution claimed that the USSR had succeeded in creating an "advanced socialist society," something the country had been collectively working toward since its inception 50 years before. But with that attainment came no meaningful change in social or political life: the relationship between man and machine, and man and man (and man and woman, for that matter), and man and party became ossified in the model of the Socialist Offensive years. Further, the elite spelled out no goal for society to move toward; it was simply existing, and people were meant to be happy that it was existing. Is it so surprising, then, that members of society took cues on indifference from the Brezhnev administration?

All of the harsh measures, the authoritarian rule, the elite guiding hand of society, was justified until that point by issues like managing the transition of a proto-capitalist society through the capital accumulation stage into socialism, the incredible external and internal threats the regime faced, and the need to organize the country into a modern state and society from its backwards origins. They were both justified and accepted as tough but necessary restraints so that the future could be brighter and freer. But when almost none of that was relaxed, when involvement in the decision-making aspects of society [aka, the whole point of socialism] never came about despite supposedly having achieved the Big Goal, I think people stopped having a reason to care about building, protecting, and helping a society that they were uninvolved and uninvested in.

Further down that road, problems with central economic planning led to a faulty quota system as well as the remnants of Stakhanovism. Uninformed by factory floor capabilities or social needs, workers simply met volume quotas and stopped work. Their products were often shoddy, and work was a chore and not a socially-involved action. Again, I feel that the Soviets missed one of the central points of socialism: that products must be produced for their immediate use by society based upon the needs of society, not for trading in the marketplace. And further, workers (and even managers) had zero input in anything involving production, from volume to design to safety and workplace "benefits." With these decisions being made far away for the benefit of people far away, how could the worker be expected to care about what he was making?

Similar problems existed in the collective farms, although the problem was correctly identified there but incorrectly addressed. The collective farms (kolkhoz), unlike the state farms (sovkhoz) did not have direct access to the tractor facilities, and nearly always had inadequate farming tools. Workers operated in "squads" on both types of farms, but the sovkhozy possessed more equipment and their squads were responsible for vastly smaller tracts of land per farm. These two elements combined to make the kolkhozy both inefficiently planted and harvested. Workers, in the rush to meet their outlandish quotas (again set by people who know nothing about the operations), carelessly ploughed and planted crops, and always found themselves unable to harvest and process the food they had managed to grow. Again, why care? The kolkhozi failed to drastically raised the standard of living of the peasantry, who continued to be referred to as such even into the "socialist" period of the late USSR. Had decision-making occurred at the local level, and products been distributed according to need and not been produced for trade afar, this would not have been nearly the issue it was. Workers, communities, and tractor stations could have responded to local necessities to improve production and quality of product, and the peasantry would not have remained so poor, restrained as they were by the market relations which the Soviet government allowed to persist to their detriment. I'm not talking about the black market, I'm talking about the fact that farms were paid for the produce they made, but only at depressed prices since the government insisted on subsidizing food prices, and thus could afford to pay less for the food. It was a persistent problem throughout the Soviet period, and it could have been done away with. It was a faulty market which the Soviet government deliberately preserved, either failing to understand or remaining indifferent toward the fact that as a market, it bred inequality, and kept the peasantry from enjoying most of the benefits of the socialist system. Indeed, it kept them peasants instead of simply workers.

The very concept of "building the New Soviet Man" was a faulty one. The Bolsheviks put the cart in front of the horse with this idea. As Marxists they should have understood that man is shaped by his material relations, and that to change the man you must change his material relations with other people. They set out to do precisely the reverse: they imagined that if they changed the man, he would in turn be motivated to change his relations with other people. It should have been apparent that this would fail. Having failed to significantly change the way man materially related to other men (that is, his relationship to the machine, production, and society did not significantly change from capitalism), the initiative to advance man significantly beyond what he is capable of in capitalist relations also failed. As others in this thread have noted, the behavior you describe is prevalent in capitalist society already.

How could the communists have succeeded? See the above paragraphs of criticism.

I hope this answers your question somewhat.
 
Domen said:
But still enough to produce an advantage of capitalist economies over communist economies.

I don't think that was even a particularly good partial cause of it.

Domen said:
They work both for others and for themselves. And what in communist reality, where there is no private property?
Under the Soviet Union you still worked for yourself in much the same way that we do now.

Domen said:
Local self-governments are also superior (IMO) solutions to everything being centrally-planned and centrally-governed from one place.

Subsidiarity is only applicable to certain government functions. Some functions like the provision of social welfare are only possible at the national level because smaller entities usually lack access to broad-based taxes. (The United States is a partial exception although the states are still constrained because their tax bases are rather more mobile than is the case at the national level. It's being easier to leave New York than it is to leave America. This isn't a super strong effect and is not a great argument against raising taxes but it should be borne in mind).
 
[Sovok is] someone characterized by the following:

- Indifference to the results of his labour (as expressed in the saying "They pretend they are paying us, and we pretend we are working").

- Lack of initiative and avoidance of taking any individual responsibility on anything.

- Indifference to common property and petty theft from the workplace, both for personal use and for profit.
[...]
- Obedience or passive acceptance of everything that government imposes on them (see authoritarianism).

- In the opinion of a former US ambassador to Kazakhstan, a tendency to drink heavily
WalMart is a communist state. Who knew?
 
The first three are common in any workplace. I've experienced it when I worked as a laborer, at a supermarket and with the government. Personally, I see it rather more as a function of the boredom that comes with a lot of jobs; rather than as a function of any particular socioeconomic system. Interestingly, I haven't seen so much of the first one during my time working as an academic. The second though is hilariously common.

Yeah, mostly this. I even see a surprising degree of laziness and lack of initiative among some in the academic community.

WalMart is a communist state. Who knew?

It all makes sense now! The brutal working conditions, the basket-case cheap economy, the massive amount of central planning required to actually manage Wal-Mart's supply chain...
 
the massive amount of central planning required to actually manage Wal-Mart's supply chain...

Galbraith made a point to this effect back in the late '60s, that Western corporations and Soviet state firms had gravitated toward a common planning system because of the demands of capital investment and technological coordination. The difference between the two was who made the decisions: in the West it was lower and mid-level managers, in the USSR it was GosPlan high-escelon bureaucrats. Those lower managers who did have power were constantly being second-guessed by Party cadres which lessened their efficiency in the interest of appeasing "Central goals."
 
sounds like an elaboration of coasian firm theory
 
since it was talked about corps. and communism, frankly I don't see that much of difference between the two.

let's see

- a bunch of people own that corporation, but majority are perfectly indifferent to what the outcome will be in... heck, even in less than 1 year(a day trader doesn't care at all about fundamentals of that corporation - you'll "own" part of it for a couple of hours). Beside top echelon, noone cares. Much like communism.

- usually, via "lobby" you ensure a legislation insulating you from any competition outside the other corporations, basically providing you with an oligopoly. Invent enough rules and any newcomer won't have a chance.

- workers are indifferent, except for the prospect of advancing in the corp. ladder(you did the same in communism).

"- Obedience or passive acceptance of everything that government imposes on them" - Fed and the US govt. injected trillions in banks. Saw any american doing anything? Theft on a massive scale, everyone just *ucked it up.

While I know very well what you're talking about also having read the book and living in communism, in my opinion the quoted features are simply the effect of a centralized regime. It's irrelevant if it's communist or fascist. Centralized and with very limited social mobility should give that result. You could say that the low social mobility is an effect, not a cause, but imho that's wrong; the system is designed to produce that.

Much of the "free world" is in the process of producing the same results without having communism as ideology...
 
If people feel that they can loose their jobs for no good reason then they loose trust in the organisation and then just work for themselves and cover their own backs. So a large privately run organisation that is firing people because it needs too can end up with large sections of its remaining work force not taking any initiative etc because they do not want to get noticed and fired as well.


From CIPD

"Trust varies across the workforce and between different organisations. In particular, trust is lacking
among public sector workers ... In contrast, trust is more widespread in small organisations
where leaders have greater visibility and establish personal relationships with employees."

http://www.cipd.co.uk/hr-resources/research/megatrends-organisations-losing-trust-workers.aspx

According to a new report from the CIPD, a lack of trust in the UK’s workplaces poses a potential threat to economic recovery. The research finds that employees who do not trust their senior managers are likely to be less productive and less engaged. With only just over a third (37%) of employees trusting their organisation’s senior management*, this leaves considerable room for improvement in raising the UK’s relatively low labour productivity.

The paper “Are organisations losing the trust of their workers?”, published today by the CIPD, the professional body for HR and people development, forms part of the CIPD’s Megatrends research project exploring and developing the debate on the economic and social trends that will shape the world of work, the workforce and the culture and organisation of workplaces in the future.

The report presents data from a wide range of surveys and research documenting recent trends in employee trust in senior management. It analyses the various factors likely to be behind weak employee trust, the implications for organisations when trust is lost, and how trust can be rebuilt.

Mark Beatson, Chief Economist at the CIPD comments: “Trust is an economic issue. If employees do not trust their leaders, this damages business performance. Employees spend more time covering their backs and trying to second guess what management are up to. They are much less likely to be engaged in their work; indeed, they are more likely to be looking for another job and are unlikely to recommend their employer to anyone else.

http://www.cipd.co.uk/pressoffice/p...onomic-recovery-warns-cipd-report-231213.aspx
 
I believe that any communist state inevitably produces a society of Ewoks.
 
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