Being proud of something into which you've had no input is invariably a bad thing. Just look at white pride.
Is being patriotic/nationalistic a bad thing?
- Thread starter Xanikk999
- Start date
Masquerouge
Deity
Sidhe said:I take it your not nationilistic then
Nationalism ok, raccism bad.
orthograph, good
Mirc
Not mIRC!!!
orthodox, good
Nothing wrong with that, and it is the individual who makes those words bad names. Civilization even harshly judges the words as if the individuals in their country support a bad concept.
I will never accept the notion of universalism that regards all humans as the same. Humans are too different to accept other people as equals.
I will never accept the notion of universalism that regards all humans as the same. Humans are too different to accept other people as equals.
Abaddon
Deity
Masquerouge said:
Im proud of my dad...
Masquerouge
Deity
Abaddon said:
I am not. I love my dad dearly, and I respect him a whole lot, but I'm not proud of him.
But on the other hand, he can be proud of me
I am a patriotic jingoist and am quite unapologetic about it. I love my country and think it is the best in the world. I would hope everyone feels the same about their nation, and quite frankly I view people with suspicion who don't feel that way about their own nation.
De Lorimier
North American Scum
You mean realist people?
I don't mind patriotism and nationalism, heck I can't say anything else, I have a freaking flag for my avatar! But I know one thing: they are human inventions. Like all notions that were invented by human beings, it can be both great and horrible. I take only the good part. You won't find me ever flying a flag over my head, I'm not actually that type in real life. I'm politically involved, I'm passionate about my country and its issues, but I certainly don't think that my country is better, my culture is more evolved, or any other bs like that.
I don't mind patriotism and nationalism, heck I can't say anything else, I have a freaking flag for my avatar! But I know one thing: they are human inventions. Like all notions that were invented by human beings, it can be both great and horrible. I take only the good part. You won't find me ever flying a flag over my head, I'm not actually that type in real life. I'm politically involved, I'm passionate about my country and its issues, but I certainly don't think that my country is better, my culture is more evolved, or any other bs like that.
You have to admit that this discussion might never have happened had the world come under one flag had World War 1 or later wars been different, because of those cultural differences and the newer rights granted under a democracy during the century would be forgotten.
Half of us might never have been alive had our countries been weaker during those years.
Half of us might never have been alive had our countries been weaker during those years.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
IMO an acceptable level of nationalism lies somewhere between nationalist apathy and VRWCAgent's position.
silver 2039
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
- Messages
- 16,208
Nationalsim and Patriotisim are not inherently bad, it is what people do as a result of them that is bad.
I consider myself to be patriotic but I think that leaders often use nationalism to get people to do things that are wrong (war, blind faith, genocide...). There is a difference between loyalty and blind faith. If you are truely patriotic and loyal you will stand up for your rights and will critisise the government need to be. I have often spoken out aginst things the government has done and have been called 'un-Australian'. Does anyone else think I am unpatriotic for this? A country needs nationalism because otherwise there people would have no respect for one another and do nothing but think of themselves but the extent to which nationalism is used is wrong.
Verbose
Deity
Nations have been a bad idea in general.
Humans are good a making up differences over which we can kill each other (i.e. "the We" kills "the Others"). It doesn't have to be nations, but nations are what we're stuck with since the French and American revolutions, so that's what we've been going to war over.
And it doesn't really matter whether you're labeled patriot or nationalist, the mechanisms are the same.
The thing that does make a differnence within a nation is whether it's a "universalistic" nation (US and France) or some kind of ethnic one. But that only applies internally. With regards to "inter-nation" relations both kinds have the capacity to be equally bad.
Humans are good a making up differences over which we can kill each other (i.e. "the We" kills "the Others"). It doesn't have to be nations, but nations are what we're stuck with since the French and American revolutions, so that's what we've been going to war over.
And it doesn't really matter whether you're labeled patriot or nationalist, the mechanisms are the same.
The thing that does make a differnence within a nation is whether it's a "universalistic" nation (US and France) or some kind of ethnic one. But that only applies internally. With regards to "inter-nation" relations both kinds have the capacity to be equally bad.
Rambuchan
The Funky President
I'm not a fan of patriotism or nationalism and I think both are inherently bad human constructs.
Both, by their very nature, create an 'out group' for the pitying, hating, vilifying, mocking, warring, rejecting. You simply can't feel like part of such a club without implying the rejection of another. Nationalists and Patriots (jingoistic or otherwise) are meaningless and purposeless individuals in a vacuum. Even a Patriot must assume that there is some 'other' out there who doesn't share his enlightened views.
Sure, these have brought their benefits to many people, bringing about independence, revolution against tyrrany and so on. But that time is long gone. Now they create division, suspicion and conflict more than anything else.
Aside from that, I would echo the comments by De Lorimier and Verbose on this.
Both, by their very nature, create an 'out group' for the pitying, hating, vilifying, mocking, warring, rejecting. You simply can't feel like part of such a club without implying the rejection of another. Nationalists and Patriots (jingoistic or otherwise) are meaningless and purposeless individuals in a vacuum. Even a Patriot must assume that there is some 'other' out there who doesn't share his enlightened views.
Sure, these have brought their benefits to many people, bringing about independence, revolution against tyrrany and so on. But that time is long gone. Now they create division, suspicion and conflict more than anything else.
Aside from that, I would echo the comments by De Lorimier and Verbose on this.
plarq
Crazy forever
To me, moral values don't involve patriotism/nationalism, since they're not universal and self conflicted in nature.
Say, countrymen of nation A values A's tradition better, while people from nation B values B's better. But since we don't hold a relativist view, how could we tell A's right from B's right if we hold patriotistic doctrine? My solution is, patriotism/nationalism don't serve as a universal law such as humanitarianism, and we won't face these paradoxes.
To me, the reason to support patriotism/nationalism is pure materistic. If we humble citizens could benefit from our union, and no freedom is oppressed for either majority or minority, no persection of leftwingers or rightwingers or any political party, no religion bashing, no xenophobia, no violation of human rights domesticly or abroad, only then I would support patriotism.
The worst usage of patriotism and nationalism is as hardcore moral codes and a one-for-all criticism. "Everyone who doesn't show patriotism is a traitor." "Everyone who enjoys foreign culture more than ours is a traitor." "Everyone who has good feeling with our enemy for once is a traitor." and the worst of worst, "Everyone who disagrees with our policies is a traitor."
Say, countrymen of nation A values A's tradition better, while people from nation B values B's better. But since we don't hold a relativist view, how could we tell A's right from B's right if we hold patriotistic doctrine? My solution is, patriotism/nationalism don't serve as a universal law such as humanitarianism, and we won't face these paradoxes.
To me, the reason to support patriotism/nationalism is pure materistic. If we humble citizens could benefit from our union, and no freedom is oppressed for either majority or minority, no persection of leftwingers or rightwingers or any political party, no religion bashing, no xenophobia, no violation of human rights domesticly or abroad, only then I would support patriotism.
The worst usage of patriotism and nationalism is as hardcore moral codes and a one-for-all criticism. "Everyone who doesn't show patriotism is a traitor." "Everyone who enjoys foreign culture more than ours is a traitor." "Everyone who has good feeling with our enemy for once is a traitor." and the worst of worst, "Everyone who disagrees with our policies is a traitor."
Enkidu Warrior
Ultramagnetic
I think the nation is the most damaging, de-humanising concept currently in existence, and the world will be a thoroughly better place when we have abolished the lot of them. We are all human.
Similar threads
