Is 'choice' a choice?

[ChrTh]

Do you believe that we are actually able to choose based on free will, or are all the choices we make foreordained via other factors such as upbringing, the influence of other people's opinions, etc.? Or somewhere in the middle -- most choices are foreordained, but we can on occasion escape the background noise and make a choice based on free will?

 

[puglover]

How can I say? I just choose stuff, I don't know if its preordained that I choose it.

 

[homeyg]

These threads are getting better and better!

This doesn't even make sense!

 

[Rhymes]

While this seems like a spamming parody at first glance, I think it's actually quite brilliant and right on.
The question answers pretty well to all those other choice threads. How limited are we to making choices, considering the amount of baggage we have in our genes.

Well done!

 

[ChrTh]

This doesn't even make sense!

Someone needs to go rewatch the Matrix films!

I'll use an example to illustrate what I'm discussing here:

A man walks into a bar, and decides to order a margarita instead of his typical martini. He may think he's made a choice born of free will, but in actuality he didn't: earlier in the day he heard "It's 5 o'clock somewhere" and made a subconscious connection to Jimmy Buffett and the song Margaritaville and this led him to order a Margarita tonight.

However, he may have not heard the song, but still chosen to order a Margarita, or he may have heard the song but still chose his normal Martini. Etc. Different philosophers may reach different conclusions, and I was polling our Civfanatic philosophers for their opinion.

And of course, the question becomes, if you or I have a Margarita tomorrow, is it because I posted this example?

 

[homeyg]

Okay well if this is serious: I don't think 'choice' is a choice because we we're given the responsibility - you can't choose to make a choice, you just do, and sometimes you aren't even aware.

And let me make an example:

Shall I go to Taco Bell or McDonalds? There is no way out of this choice even if you decide to not go out to eat, because even that would be a choice. Everything you can do is a choice, and there is no way out of it except not existing, and that can even be a choice.

 

[Fugitive Sisyphus]

If the universe is deterministic and if we have no free will, there is no way to know that and therefore it does not matter.

 

[The Last Conformist]

"Free will" is a hopelessly underdefined concept.

That said, drinking martinis isn't a choice, it's a way of life.

 

[ChrTh]

Shall I go to Taco Bell or McDonalds? There is no way out of this choice even if you decide to not go out to eat, because even that would be a choice. Everything you can do is a choice, and there is no way out of it except not existing, and that can even be a choice.

The "illusion of choice" argument doesn't say a choice doesn't occur; what it says is, whether you go to McDonald's or Taco Bell or choose not to eat at all, that even though you think that you have made a choice, in reality you haven't because no matter what you would've made the same choice. And if in a given situation there is a 100% likelihood that a specific choice is made by an individual, then there really was no choice. In others words, you may "choose" to go McDonald's for dinner, but if it was inevitable that you were going to McDonald's (you craved a big mac, or you have a positive association with McDonald's from when you're a kid that you unconsciously hope will counteract your bad day at work, etc) what you really have is the illusion of choice. You *think* you had the Free Will to choose where you were going for dinner, but in reality, no matter what, you were going to go to McD's.

 

[homeyg]

The "illusion of choice" argument doesn't say a choice doesn't occur; what it says is, whether you go to McDonald's or Taco Bell or choose not to eat at all, that even though you think that you have made a choice, in reality you haven't because no matter what you would've made the same choice. And if in a given situation there is a 100% likelihood that a specific choice is made by an individual, then there really was no choice. In others words, you may "choose" to go McDonald's for dinner, but if it was inevitable that you were going to McDonald's (you craved a big mac, or you have a positive association with McDonald's from when you're a kid that you unconsciously hope will counteract your bad day at work, etc) what you really have is the illusion of choice. You *think* you had the Free Will to choose where you were going for dinner, but in reality, no matter what, you were going to go to McD's.

So you're saying, consciously you think you're making a choice, but subconscioulsy it's already determined?

 

[ChrTh]

While this seems like a spamming parody at first glance, I think it's actually quite brilliant and right on.
The question answers pretty well to all those other choice threads. How limited are we to making choices, considering the amount of baggage we have in our genes.

Well done!

Thanks! I always try to make my spamming parodies threads as meaningful as possible. However, I will say it's not just genes. Social interactions can play a larger impact sometimes (spoken as only a married individual can).

Unfortunately, if the poll is any indication, this wasn't the right time to create this thread. I'll probably resurrect it (via a new thread, of course) in six or so months. I'll also make sure to better define the choices to make it more clear.

I guess the question is, is the follow-up thread inevitable? Or can I choose not to make it? Damn ...

 

[ChrTh]

So you're saying, consciously you think you're making a choice, but subconscioulsy it's already determined?

Precisely. But I'm not saying it--it's just a theory that exists out there. I probably don't even agree with it for the most part ... but I do think there's a truth hidden in there somewhere.

 

[Shaihulud]

Let us break the tyranny of fate by choosing to base your decision base on random throw of the dice!

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Determinism all the way, baby!

Choice is when multiple opportunities and paths seem equally viable. Of course, which one we chose depends on everything that has conditioned us before it.

 

[North King]

I obviously don't know, but my preferred thought is that the human mind is the only entity in the world where randomness truly occurs. We are the only beings who can choose our fates.

It's better that way, because we do have responsibility, and there's no way of backing out.

 

[azzaman333]

Extra-polated.

I chose to write that.

 

[Elrohir]

I believe in free will.

But then, if it doesn't exist, I would say that anyway, wouldn't I? Whatever. I'll live my life like I think I'm the one making the choices, and if I'm wrong then blame the puppeteer.

 

[Ansar]

Choices depend on how important they are.

 

[Tulkas12]

Generally all the sex orientation threads are a bit silly anyways.


I think people do make choices, but I also feel alot in life is pre-determined by our responsibilities. In all practicality it is not a choice to conform to the society you are in for example. You can object to alot of it, but in the end in your daily life you still conform.

 

[warpus]

If the universe is deterministic and if we have no free will, there is no way to know that and therefore it does not matter.

But it is not deterministic - at least as far as we can tell.

IMO we have the illusion of free will - one granted by the properties of quantum physics. However, the illusion of free will and free will itself might as well be the same thing, as far as we are concerned.