Is Having Sex in Front of your Children Child Abuse?

[Ryika]

Yes, I very much stated that I'm making assumptions. Didn't claim to do anything else.

Not sure what the thing about mutations is about though, mutations appear all the time and without any prerequisites. Mutations do however not stay or spread (beyond a local scale if the mutation appears in a set of genes that is otherwise very strong) in a population if they're not in some way beneficial to the individuals that inherent them at the time they appear.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You're making a lot of assumptions about what makes survival and reproduction more likely here ; about when such a mutation would have appeared ; etc.

You'd have to make assumptions to conclude one way or the other.

It's somewhat of a red herring/tangent anyway.

 

[H4run]

Then show us the evidence that it's harmful absent cultural training to be traumatized by it. You're saying something is overstated. Show us why that is.

It is overstated in the context of how I understand your post previously, which seem to say that human different reaction between witnessing animal mating with witnessing human mating are cultural formed reaction, if that is what you said it is very much overstated.

Just to be clear is that really what was you trying to say in your reaction toward my reply to berzerker or do I misunderstand you?

The requirement is to establish the action causes trauma. You don't get to claim it causes trauma because trauma is dangerous.

Where are you getting those sources?

No of course not, in my previous comment I do mention that sexual exposure to child in early age can result an effect that is similar to sexual abuse. I quote a journal for that also.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Just to be clear is that really what was you trying to say in your reaction toward my reply to berzerker or do I misunderstand you?

I'm saying that without evidence you can't rule out the possibility that our reaction to this is a conditioned one.

No of course not, in my previous comment I do mention that sexual exposure to child in early age can result an effect that is similar to sexual abuse. I quote a journal for that also.

Sigh...just cite the journal properly so we can look at the context and see for ourselves. That's what I asked for in the first place. Otherwise we're still stuck on the "trauma causes harm" circular non-logic rather than seeing substantive data supporting that harm necessarily happens independent of conditioning, the latter which could easily end this discussion outright.

 

[H4run]

I'm saying that without evidence you can't rule out the possibility that our reaction to this is a conditioned one.

The difference reaction of human seeing human sexuality and seeing animal sexuality are not a conditioned one, and it is older than culture, that is the reason why we multiply etc etc. That is pretty obivious isn't it? or should we need a scientific proof that the difference of human perception to human sexuality is difference with human perception to animal sexuality is not culturally constructed? I only need an abstraction for that, and the experiment to prove this will be an unnecessary experiment that quite impossible and expensive to execute so I believe that no one will fund it.

Sigh...just cite the journal properly so we can look at the context and see for ourselves. That's what I asked for in the first place. Otherwise we're still stuck on the "trauma causes harm" circular non-logic rather than seeing substantive data supporting that harm necessarily happens independent of conditioning, the latter which could easily end this discussion outright.

I already quote it for Dachs, that journal is what I found after quick search, the source is this. And yea I will re-quote it for you:

the exposure of children to pornography and adult sexual behavior is also sexual abuse. It can have effects similar to those of more severe sexual abuse, including depression, fearfulness, and nightmares in addition to other symptom s.

Here it say sexual abuse cannot be only understood solely in physical form, but also exposing the child to adult sexual behaviour can be classify as abuse because it has similar effect with that of physical abuse.

another quotation

Sexual abuse can be verbal and emotional as well as physical. It includes exposing children to pornography or adult sexual behavior.

other

Exposure to sexually stimulating materials may elicit aggressive behavior in youth who are predisposed to aggression.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

That is pretty obivious isn't it? or should we need a scientific proof that the difference of human perception to human sexuality is difference with human perception to animal sexuality is not culturally constructed?

The problem with this point is that it remains irrelevant to the central question. I have no intention arguing it because of said irrelevance. Air is different from cast iron cook ware, but that doesn't mean air is traumatic.

Establish that OP question is necessarily traumatic outside of conditioning. Establishing that it's different from something else is insufficient/irrelevant.

I already quote it for Dachs, that journal is what I found after quick search, the source is this

From one of the links there:

1. An important methodological issue has to do with the population (group of people) from which a sample, or selected group of a population actually researched, is drawn. Different prevalence rates have been found in samples of: college students; clinical populations or people receiving psychological treatment; and community populations or whoever lives in some area (e.g., a city, state, or country).

So conditioning has a pretty significant impact, after all.

If the site you linked is credible, you would expect since the 1995 times that traumatic experiences from viewing this stuff on the internet would *skyrocket*, with observable differences in psychology and behaviors. The claim you quote is that children self-abuse on a large scale (IE any time they access the internet and view pornography). That's a strong claim and it has testable consequences; where's the disparate manifestations of harm? In order to create a plausible model for what you've quoted, we have to let that model anticipate mass harm to children throughout the world. We don't have much observed evidence of that happening.

And despite my request for otherwise, you're still sticking to biased sampling; IE the same culturally conditioned population. We're also still lacking specific data for OP's case question, though there might not be competently tracked data on the psychological consequences of witnessing parents having sex in different cultures.

 

[H4run]

The problem with this point is that it remains irrelevant to the central question. I have no intention arguing it because of said irrelevance. Air is different from cast iron cook ware, but that doesn't mean air is traumatic.

Establish that OP question is necessarily traumatic outside of conditioning. Establishing that it's different from something else is insufficient/irrelevant.

I agree in the sense that this discussion is already derail from the OP question and this is a RD thread hence it will be more proper for us to stop discussing this. This discussion start from I try to refute that berzerker comparison is invalid because it is not an equal comparison, so better just cut it here.

From one of the links there:



So conditioning has a pretty significant impact, after all.

If the site you linked is credible, you would expect since the 1995 times that traumatic experiences from viewing this stuff on the internet would *skyrocket*, with observable differences in psychology and behaviors. The claim you quote is that children self-abuse on a large scale (IE any time they access the internet and view pornography). That's a strong claim and it has testable consequences; where's the disparate manifestations of harm? In order to create a plausible model for what you've quoted, we have to let that model anticipate mass harm to children throughout the world. We don't have much observed evidence of that happening.

And despite my request for otherwise, you're still sticking to biased sampling; IE the same culturally conditioned population. We're also still lacking specific data for OP's case question, though there might not be competently tracked data on the psychological consequences of witnessing parents having sex in different cultures.

I understand in some part of the discussion you try to be objective in this matter I really value that just to let you know. You try not to undermine the traumatic affect of parent having sex with children, however you try balance your opinion by stating that it is not the act that causing the trauma but it is the culture influence on how we perceive the act that actually cause the trauma. Am I understand you correctly?

However culture is an intrinsic aspect that already build up in our existent, it mean that it is quite impossible to make any research on human psychology that is absent from cultural influence, because there is no human that don't have any cultural background influencing them, except tarzan maybe

Having said that I believe that doesn't mean culture is an agent that shape this perspective, but as I stated before culture already part of ourselves since the very very early of our development, and it is already there and we can always suspect culture conspiracy on an unlimited numbers of issue. Also there is no laboratory that able to control cultural factor from entering, we may need to raise a child in a secluded and control environment that is sterile from any form of cultural existent, and see how the child respond on the stimuli in that "free culture" environment. A research that is not only expensive, but also impossible to be done today, except by a government like North Korea but I doubt they have any interest doing that, considering there is no practical reason to do that.

Hence the only wisest way to continue this discussion without trapping ourselves in the circular endless argument is either by neglecting culture as the independent variable or trying to search a research that is done from various other culture that prove that the effect is actually cross culture in nature.

It is impossible as far as I know, as I taking a class years ago in psychology experiment, to make a universal research regarding some issue, the sample population will be insanely huge and need to be taken from variety of country and class social with adequate quantity of sample population, it is a dream research that sound nice but too utopian to be done.