Is Isreal overacting?

[happy_Alex]

An equitable solution that brings lasting peace to all people? Theres never been such a thing, and never will be. Next suggestion.

I love your optimism it's infectious...

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I love your optimism it's infectious...

Optimism is part of human nature, but when it comes to war, other aspects of human nature take charge.

 

[Lord Cooper]

aye to suggest everlasting peace in that area of the* world is pretty ********..

 

[Princeps]

aye to suggest everlasting peace in that area of that world is pretty ********..

to suggest everlasting peace in any area inhabited by man is pretty ********

 

[Sidhe]

aye to suggest everlasting peace in that area of that world is pretty ********..

You might of said the same thing about European history up to 1946 as well, had you lived in these times, now it seems almost unfathomable that there is actually widespread peace, so many factions so many wars that the the map of Europe was obsolete so often it was rarely worththe paper it was written on. You have no idea what will happen in the future, I would suggest that if you do you claims James Randis prize for a million dolars Peace will come at some point, we may be dead before we see it and it would take alot wiser leaders than we have in and around the area now, but it is possible. On the other hand we could promote continued war untill Either Israel is wiped off the face of the map or the Arab countries are, now that's a better solution right?

Everlasting no, peace as a norm yes.

 

[Lord Cooper]

i highly doubt niether will happen anytime in the next millenium.. i mean its a nice thing to think about, but its unreal, and at the point impossible.. only even if an arab state controls the whole of the middle east, you can bet your car that there would be numerous revolts and terrorist actions.. to come between a fanatic and his beliefs is dangerous, very dangerous

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Everlasting no, peace as a norm yes.

We've had the peace of the dictatorships, till now anyway. Dictatorships which we've supported. Is that the type of peace youre referring to?

 

[Sidhe]

i highly doubt niether will happen anytime in the next millenium.. i mean its a nice thing to think about, but its unreal, and at the point impossible.. only even if an arab state controls the whole of the middle east, you can bet your car that there would be numerous revolts and terrorist actions.. to come between a fanatic and his beliefs is dangerous, very dangerous

That applies to our religous wars too though, killing in the name of... is the third biggest killer in European history behind plague and famine, and the crusades have been advanced as the method of ingress for the Bubonic plague as well.

The fanatical elements in Islam are over represented now because war always needs propaganda, whether that propaganda has anything to actually do with heir religion is a matter for a whole thread Islam is as peaceful a religion in it's tennants as Christianity is, if any politician or leader actually dared to follow it that is. instead of cherry picking stuff and corrupting it, the preserve of fundementalists the world over I believe, take what you want from the bible/Koran not what is troubling to your ideology, actually thinking about it that's unfair believers have been doing that since long before Jesus gave his life for our sins. Anybody ever thought of asking why he bothered, doesn't seem like we learnt much eh Is there less sin now than then, nope probably the same amount, just with more devastating consequences, at least were consistent. Idiotic but consistent.

We've had the peace of the dictatorships, till now anyway. Dictatorships which we've supported. Is that the type of peace youre referring to?

Yeah like the Shah now that was a popular man, so popular his people overthrew him, you guys liked him though that's not what I'd call peace would you? Peace comes when countries have stable governments, who wish to move forward, war comes when hard liners get in be they dictators or democraticly elected. that's when the **** starts hitting the fan, Sharons and khomenis arent good for any situation IMO.

 

[Lord Cooper]

thats good thinking... at one point all of christendom wa sthe same as the islamic faith.. but we've westernized and whatnot... now my girlfriend is a muslim, and he rfamily isnt even a hardcore one (dont have to wear burkas etc etc) and from what ive seen from her family, they believe the islamic faith is the only way to go and everyone is wrong.. now they arent willing to fight for it but they are from turkey which are fairly modernized compared to other muslim states.. but when you get a hardcore muslim and try to tell him he is wrong or even deny what he believes as in israel belongs to the jews.. they are gonna fight for it.. and not give up for thousands of years (like what has happened ) .... if the middleeast were to get westernized.. even at a state of par with turkey then maybe everlasting peace could remain.. but you will still see conflicts between jews,muslims,christians.. its human nature.. no one likes to be wrong, and no one wants to admit they're wrong..

 

[Sidhe]

he he, their is only one path to salvation and you can be damn sure it's ours Ever noticed though how God/Allah/Yahewa appaers to have several chosen races, now you tell me since God is incapable of lying, does that not mean that one of the religions is lying or at least is mistaken or that God was lying about being unable to lie

 

[Lord Cooper]

eh..im a protestant.. but i believe is.. all these religeons believe in the same god.. just we all have different beliefs on how to praise him and whatnot.. i believe in god, but i also believe religeon was created to keep humans in order, give us something to live for, and be great people for.. if we never believed in sins our world would be so much more of a hell hole.. beliefs and customs.. and what the quran or bible says yous hould do, was all meant to keep its people safe, in order, and united... like they are not allowed to eat pork.. reason for.. pork goes bad really quick at hott heat.. so they made this a sin so they'd get thier people to stop etaing it and thus not getting ill... also the whole thing about saving your virginity for after marriage.. and how important sexuel behavior should only be exposed to the special one you love and no one else.. (which i firmly believe, and follow ) was to stop the spread of certain VD's plus.. its honorable and how so.. god is real, yes he is.. but i also believe religeon is just like laws.. meant to keep people safe and in order..religeon is a great, wonderful thing, with different oppinions and views.. to keep us safe and righteous

 

[happy_Alex]

i'm a socialist, and one of my core beliefs is that we can build and entirely peaceful world, and we can achieve it through collective action. Sorry Bozo!

 

[Lord Cooper]

sorry but to believe that is naive.(or however you spell it)... to believe that the world will be at peace at onbe time.. thats denying human nature.. its unrealistic and just stupid to belief that.. its setting yourself up for an upset.. its just not possible

 

[happy_Alex]

Yes it is, despite the terrible things happening in the world, the majority is a peacefull place.

 

[Lord Cooper]

thats true.. but as long as people have beliefs.. people will fight .. its the wonderful thing about humans.. we think we are so advanced.. but we are still animals.. we have instincts and just a nature to us.. that wont ever change


and thinking the world will be completely peaceful at one point is like thinking.. if you take two rabid wolves and strave them.. and then place them in the same room and throwing a steak in there and expecting them not to fight over it.. just think of the steak as power, wealth, and land .. and the wolves as us.. its just nature.. its sad, but true

trust me i wish the world could be peaceful... its a great thought.. but its just athought and for the most part wont ever be achieved

 

[happy_Alex]

humans are not animals my friend, and i never go for those naturalistic intepretations of the world. As humans we have the capacity to share out the steak between us

 

[Lord Cooper]

yes we are animals.. more then you think.. and im not a naturalist.. anywho.. we can share a steak.. but when it comes to power, land, and wealth .. we have a problem

 

[Mott1]

Read this it is a more moderate view, maybe it's only western Islamics that are moderate but I seriously doubt it. There are a great deal of Muslims and I think the fundementalists are in the minority, they just have a big mouth.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/shaziamirza2.html

Yes, Islamic fundamentalists or extremists who fund, promote and carry out terrorism are the minority, however the problem is that it is difficult to establish which Muslim condemns terrorism and who approves it. What we call terrorism to a Muslim is holy Jihad and Jihad is a pillar of Islam. No Muslim can be against Jihad. If you oppose Jihad you are no more a Muslim.

There are Muslims who condemn terrorism but can't condemn Jihad. The same Muslims who deny Islam's involvement in 9/11 and say it was the work of the CIA and the Jews and that "Muslims would never do such thing", delight of the carnage and say America had it coming and that the Muslims have been oppressed and now they are rightfully retaliating. I had conversations with Muslims who expressed these diametrically opposing views, i.e. "Muslims won't do such a thing" and "America deserved it" in two consecutive sentences. Which category do they belong to?

I read the link above, and again that is just a reinterpretation or false representation of Jihad, If that was the true Interpretation, all Muslims would follow that norm and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You state that you are not convinced by a few violent passages in the Quran, besides the fact that the Quran is full of them you must remember that to Muslims the Quran is the incorruptable word of God not just parable's given by a prophet. So when you read a verse like:

"... I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them"(Quran 8.12)

This would be mandated by God, not the prophet who is only doing what God demands. In this, all actions of Muhammed are without fault they are in fact perfect. And it is his actions that set the yardstick of what is right and what is wrong, what is moral and what is immoral.

I'd like to see the passages either side of these too, to get an idea of real meaning, in what context is this being said and why?

Very reasonable request, however reading a passage of the Quran in context does not mean just reading it with the preceding and following verses. You have to read it in a historic context (sha'ne nozool), why and in what occasion Muhammad said a certain verse. In this, you refer to tafseer. Tafseer is the interpretation of the Quran. Tafseer means to clarify, to expound. It is derived from "fasara", which means "to explain, or to unveil".

There are many books on tafseer. The reason is that the Quran is an obtuse and at times contradicting book. The historic context of the verses must be explained so its real meaning becomes clear.

Lets take for example the verse you provided:

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not do aggression, for Allah loves not the aggressors. (Al Baqarah 2:190)


This verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with Jihad, but it was supplemented by another:

That is the right religion, so wrong not yourselves therein, and fight against the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) collectively, as they fight against you collectively.(9.36)


Following that is a narration of the text by an Islamic scholar; (ii (2:190)

"Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite."

Funnily enough a quick search of google tends to show in entirity that Jihad is not necessarily about violent struggle,

Of course, that is a moderate Islamic site with the agenda to propagate Islam as a peaceful religion. Try a search for an Islamic fundamental site or ex-Muslim site. I encourage this so you can research Islam in an honest and objective manner.

It is not the religion that is to blame it is those who follow it and corrupt it, who refuse to see anything in context, who preach loathing an intolerance, this to me is not Islam, it is a political corruption for political means.

Religion is an ideology and people are free to choose which ideology they believe in. Do you blame those who followed nazi fascism or those who tried to reform it? they are both to blame, because by its very nature Nazi fascism is evil.
Islamic fundamentalism is not Islam to you because you are not very knowledgeable about Islam, I would never make a conclusive opinion on an ideology before thoroughly researching it.

 

[Leatherneck]

humans are not animals my friend, and i never go for those naturalistic intepretations of the world. As humans we have the capacity to share out the steak between us

If we are not animals then we are what ... plants?

i'm a socialist, and one of my core beliefs is that we can build and entirely peaceful world, and we can achieve it through collective action.

OK maybe you are a plant, because you are a nut. You can barely get 2 people on these forums to agree on anything without it spinning out of control and you're going to get 6,000,000,000 to do it. Maybe the Peace Fairy will come down and wave her magic wand and we all live happily ever after. We've been fighting since man lived in caves, we'll be fighting when return to them.
There has always been a pecking order, there well aways be a pecking order, there will always be callenges to that pecking order and there will be violence as a result.
That and $3.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbuck.

 

[happy_Alex]

If we are not animals then we are what ... plants?



OK maybe you are a plant, because you are a nut. You can barely get 2 people on these forums to agree on anything without it spinning out of control and you're going to get 6,000,000,000 to do it. Maybe the Peace Fairy will come down and wave her magic wand and we all live happily ever after. We've been fighting since man lived in caves, we'll be fighting when return to them.
There has always been a pecking order, there well aways be a pecking order, there will always be callenges to that pecking order and there will be violence as a result.
That and $3.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbuck.

Hmm.....

Why do posters from a certain country always go bananas when they see the word 'socialism'? Read the post I was responding to and you will see the context, ie he was trying to explain human behaviour in naturalistic terms. Okay. I'm very sorry, maybe we are animals. Now excuse me while I go and forage for friut and nuts in the nearby forrest. Maybe I'll see a female whome I can bash over the head and drag back to my cave for some nooky.