Is Isreal overacting?

[Princeps]

ASHAF, what will eventually become the PNA, clearly states the erradication of Israel as part of its agenda in 1964, three years before the supposed occupation of Palestine.

Acceptable. Muslims have the right to remove a hostile invading force from their lands. It is a defensive war, Israel, like it or not, was and is an invader.

terrorism is unacceptable.. plain and simple.. they can do something..

Why?

Israel practises terrorism as we speak.

Terrorism is a variation of warfare, it cannot be erradicated. As long as there is warfare, there is terrorism. Thinking otherwise is simply naive.

but how often do you hear of an american.. on a bus and then blow himself up.. im not seeing the point your trying to make

,

Rarely, however, I do hear about US placing puppet regimes as they see fit, play with peoples, trade arms to ruthless dictatorships, ETC ETC...

 

[happy_Alex]

well i stated that earlier in this thread.. its true israel did steal the palestinians land.. and the palestinians are trying to get thier home back.. but where the hell does hezbollah come into this..? that has nothing to do with palestine... even though i do not support the palestinian terrorist attacks.. i understand why they do it.. cause go back 60 years ago the jews were the terrorists and it was palestine at the brunt of the attacks

Many Palestinians joined Hezbollah. IMHO one cannot unlink the two.

 

[happy_Alex]

ASHAF, what will eventually become the PNA, clearly states the erradication of Israel as part of its agenda in 1964, three years before the supposed occupation of Palestine. Yassir Arafat himself participated in a raid against Israeli installations in the 1950s, and for the three bombings named in Europe in the past 30 years, I could probably bring a list 30 pages long of agression from Islamic terrorists from every country in the globe with Islam as its official religion - including two British muslim suicide bomber who blew up at a Tel-Aviv bar not three years ago.

Heaven forbid the real problem actually is Islam, and the bloody Israeli isn't a racist but a realist, no?

What is your definition of 'destruction'? do you mean

a) the end of Isreal as a Jewish state
b) the repatration of some Isrealis to europe
c) genocide

Shekel, what are your feelings on issues such as right to return, a two state soloution, jersusalem, occupied territories etc. Do you accept that these are motivators for acts of terrorism?

 

[Sh3kel]

Acceptable. Muslims have the right to remove a hostile invading force from their lands. It is a defensive war, Israel, like it or not, was and is an invader.

We weren't occuping anything other than the post-1948 borders before the Six-Day war, do you even bother reading any sort of historical fact before even attempting to practice trolling?!

What is your definition of 'destruction'? do you mean

a) the end of Isreal as a Jewish state
b) the repatration of some Isrealis to europe
c) genocide

Let's consult Wikipedia, shall we? I'm taking my info from this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO

Originally:

Founded by the Arab League in 1964, its goal was originally the destruction of the State of Israel through armed struggle, and replacing it with an "independent Palestinian state" between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

Only recently have they accepted the two-states solution. Namely - only in 1994, have they accepted the two-states solution. These are a solid three years in which they call for the destruction of the sovereign and independent state of Israel to be destroyed and replaced by a Palestinan one, considering the Jews are not one people but a grouping of immigrants with nothing in common, before the six day war.
The good scenario then is point A. The PLO's point of view is your point B. The radical point of view, the one the PFLP, Hamas and the rest of the Paelstinian organizations have, however is your point C. They want us all dead.

Shekel, what are your feelings on issues such as right to return, a two state soloution, jersusalem, occupied territories etc. Do you accept that these are motivators for acts of terrorism?

The two state solution is the only viable solution - provided the little parasites we're stuck with as neighbours provide their own damn needs and leave us the hell alone. I don't want them working my yards, constructing my buildings, picking my oranges or even using my power plants and hospitals. If I could hermetically seal them off in their state and leave them to fend for themselves with open contact to anywhere else but Israel - I'd be more than fine with them starving themselves to death because we're opressing them by not being there to govern them. Once they have their own damn state they can bring whoever they please back into it. The right of return only applies to the Palestinian country - I do not want them in my country, and considering the vast majority of those who fled are already dead I don't see why I should allow their sons back, particularly after they've elected Hamas as their leaders - a party which openly calls for the death of all Israelis. Hell, you wouldn't let an axe-wielding maniac into your household, why should I let a bomb-totting zealot into my country?
As for Jerusalem - we took it from the Jordanians, and we've settled out quarrel with them, hence it's ours.

 

[Mott1]

Real muslims won`t do such things. America ? Hmmm.... based on curent news that they`re supplying precision guided bomb to Israel to bomb Lebanon and supporting the crime... sadly, they should be realized what have they done to the world.

Hi FeelGood,
That part of my post is on the discussion on how to determine a moderate Muslim and if they are considered extremist if they support violence on non-Muslims and the West. The post is on Islamic theology not American foriegn policy, I highly doubt America is supplying arms to Israel in the name of Christianity.

Good work on this. However, time also plays the role. If you`ve done enough research, you would know what`s happening when the verses were told. They`re not told without reasons.

Btw, jihad does not only mean war. Jihad against yourself (don`t know the word, sorry), satan and all sort of evils. Jihad can also mean you`re fighting the crime, social problems, poverty ...

Actually this discussion has drifted out of topic. So if you are truly interested in debating on the meaning of jihad then start another thread. Lets not burden the people on this thread with something they are not interested in.

An ex-muslim will usually tell bad about Islam. Islam knows about this. Just like traitors will always likely tell bad about their previous believe, country or any other things.

Does it matter what ex-Muslims say about Islam? so long as it is the truth. That is for you to decide by researching all sources.

Poor analogy, ex-Muslims are not traitors. Traitors to whom, Muslims? ex-Muslims feel Muslims are the victims of an oppressive ideology, and it is out of the love in thier hearts that they wish to expose the truth.

Well, Israel has killed more people than the Arabs directly or not while refusing some hundred thousands to get back to their land... and that with "moral high ground"! Why don`t you all perform all the root cause analyses we know on this problem. Islam is the answer ? That`s bigot.

Yes, quite frankly Islam is the root cause. Am I a bigot for critising Islam? Thats just like saying your a bigot for criticizing Nazi Fasicm, Christianity or any Ideology for that matter.

Now, please tell me; why never you want to give back the stolen land ? You occupy their land, they resist and what...? You call them terrorists! Is that fair ? Yeah... fair because they intend to kill Israelis civillians. While never condoning crime, their attack seems valid. I see just like France in WWII.

What about IDF killed loads of people ? No, they never intent to kill civillians. No one knows if they`re lying. Afterall, truth is always the first victim of a war!

Again my discussion is on Islamic theology, there are so many logical fallacies in the above quote and I really do not feel like delving into it right now.

 

[Leatherneck]

self-defense ? That`s disproportionate agression! What about diplomatic ?

Name one time, one single time that diplomatic talks have worked? One single time that peace talks won out over war. There has never been a lasting peace that at some point aggression, before, during or after wasn't used. There has never to my knowledge and I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong, that a LASTING peace was made threw diplomatic talks only.

Disproportionate agression? And what message is sent if Hizboallah is allowed to survive? A terrorist victory is defined by coming out of a conflict not totally distroyed. It's like a cancer, if you don't remove it all it will be back and it will infect other areas and it will kill you. You have to attack with everything you have as soon as you find it and destroy it or you will die. You don't talk to a cancer, you don't reach and agreement. You remove it and watch to insure it doesn't return. There is no such thing as disproportionate agression with terrorist.

 

[Stapel]

I'll throw in my ideas.

Though there are many arguments to be made that Israel is overreacting, civilian casualties the most important one, I don't think their overreacting.

Israel has left Lebanon a few years ago. As it appears, Lebanon has been used as a breeding place for terrorists. The seemingly endless amounts of rockets fired from Hezbollah shelters proofs Israel was quite right about them. If a build-up of thousands of rockets in the hands of an organisation that does not allow Israel to exist is the result of a taking a step towards peace (leaving Lebanon was such a step), Israel has a point not to negotiate first.

 

[Lord Cooper]

yah alex i guess your right on that point.. hezbollah is a good part palestinian..

 

[happy_Alex]

yah alex i guess your right on that point.. hezbollah is a good part palestinian..

Holy crap! Someone agreed with me on CFC. I almost chooked on my Shredded Wheat

 

[FeelGood]

ASHAF, what will eventually become the PNA, clearly states the erradication of Israel as part of its agenda in 1964, three years before the supposed occupation of Palestine. Yassir Arafat himself participated in a raid against Israeli installations in the 1950s, and for the three bombings named in Europe in the past 30 years, I could probably bring a list 30 pages long of agression from Islamic terrorists from every country in the globe with Islam as its official religion - including two British muslim suicide bomber who blew up at a Tel-Aviv bar not three years ago.

I know you can list a series of violence by Israel too, in the name of self-defense, can`t you ?

Heaven forbid the real problem actually is Islam, and the bloody Israeli isn't a racist but a realist, no?

Why ? I would really love to know ahy. I see terrorists from Israel "cause" other terrorists to rise. Please! Not really racist or realist but a bit "terrorist".

Well, tyrants always create their enemy for sure from among their victims. When they rise, don`t whine about it.

 

[FeelGood]

Name one time, one single time that diplomatic talks have worked? One single time that peace talks won out over war. There has never ...

Ok, then lets live with this. Let all palestinians & lebanese die to save Israel.


Disproportionate agression? And what message is sent if Hizboallah is allowed to survive? A terrorist victory is defined by coming out of a conflict not totally distroyed. It's like a cancer, if you don't remove it all it will be back and it will infect other areas and it will kill you. You have to attack with everything you have as soon as you find it and destroy it or you will die. You don't talk to a cancer, you don't reach and agreement. You remove it and watch to insure it doesn't return. There is no such thing as disproportionate agression with terrorist.

It`s disproportionate agaist civillian lebanese, my friend.

Why Israel don`t want to release those Palestinians & Lebanese they held in Israeli prisons. They were kidnapped!

 

[FeelGood]

Hi FeelGood,
...The post is on Islamic theology not American foriegn policy, I highly doubt America is supplying arms to Israel in the name of Christianity.

Hi, Did I mention this ? Hmm.... then why do you think America is supplying arms to Israel ?

Actually this discussion has drifted out of topic. So if you are truly interested in debating on the meaning of jihad then start another thread. Lets not burden the people on this thread with something they are not interested in.

Just clarifying you false meaning of Jihad you say.

Does it matter what ex-Muslims say about Islam? so long as it is the truth. That is for you to decide by researching all sources.

Well, I doubt ex-muslims know the very fundamental of Islam. I know some of them .... the reasons ... well, from the internet, of course. How much truth is there in their say ?

Poor analogy, ex-Muslims are not traitors. Traitors to whom, Muslims? ex-Muslims feel Muslims are the victims of an oppressive ideology, and it is out of the love in thier hearts that they wish to expose the truth.

Yes. Oppresive idoelogy ? Nonsense! Let them tell the world.

Yes, quite frankly Islam is the root cause.

Why ? From Koran ? You simply take the verses out of context! If you study to find the false in it, then you will always see this. Try change your intent next time.

... Again my discussion is on Islamic theology, there are so many logical fallacies in the above quote and I really do not feel like delving into it right now.

State, what are the fallacies ? Are all those statements really, really untrue ?

Name one time, one single time that diplomatic talks have worked? One single time that peace talks won out over war. There has never ...

Ok, then lets live with this. Let all palestinians & lebanese die to save Israel.

Disproportionate agression? And what message is sent if Hizboallah is allowed to survive? A terrorist victory is defined by coming out of a conflict not totally distroyed ... There is no such thing as disproportionate agression with terrorist.

It`s disproportionate agaist civillian lebanese, my friend.

Why Israel doesn`t want to release those Palestinians & Lebanese (children & women) they held in Israeli prisons. They are kidnapped! Where`s the trial, lawyer, court ? Democratic state is behaving like terrorist again!

Check this:
http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000469.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000491.htm

Lets learn a word: compassion

 

[JerichoHill]

and the bombings of isreali markets with innocents there


do not make isreal to be bad here and do not make palestinians to be good.

theyre both at fault here for being idiots

 

[Lord Cooper]

there is nothing wrong with islam.. its the fanatical muslims who believe its thier way or the high way.. anywho, i believe this whole conflict is about religeon .. its the christians and jews vs the muslims in all reality it has nothing to do with nuclear whatnots or terrorist attack or political crap.. it all comes down to the religeon that each person is.. this is mainly a holy war.. whether you wanna realize it or not..


and check out my upcoming scenario.. based on the problems now, its the -absolute-worst-case scenario.. its about if eveyrthing that could go wrong does go wrong.. and puts the world on the brink of WWIII ... but let me remind you guys .. its in the very early stages of devolopment.. but check it out.. might interest some of you

 

[Mott1]

Hi, Did I mention this ? Hmm.... then why do you think America is supplying arms to Israel ?

And once again your question does not pertain to the post you replied too.

Just clarifying you false meaning of Jihad you say.

Where have you clarified my "false" understanding of jihad? Just because you claim that it is false does not prove that it is false.

Well, I doubt ex-muslims know the very fundamental of Islam. I know some of them .... the reasons ... well, from the internet, of course. How much truth is there in their say ?

Ex-Muslims know Islam all too well, that is why they apostated. As I explained, if you want to search for the truth you must examine all sources.

Yes. Oppresive idoelogy ? Nonsense! Let them tell the world.

Yes, oppressive. Lets start with women in Islam:

2:223 Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him.

2:282 and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.

4:3, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or(a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion,admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them.

4:11-12, Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children’s (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females


Women in Islam do not have equal rights. Is that not oppresive? Read those verses again. Men excel over women. They can beat the women. Women's testimony is worth half of a man. Her inheritance is half of a man. Why you insist to fool yourself?

Why ? From Koran ? You simply take the verses out of context!

It is tiresome to hear people keep repeating like a parrot "you take verses out of context" What is the right context? The whole Quran is full of violent and inhumane verses. Why do you insist to keep your head under the sand? Show me one Islamic country that follows Islamic Sharia and respects the human rights. Are all of them taking the verses out of context?

If you study to find the false in it, then you will always see this. Try change your intent next time.

If I find just one false in it, that would make the entire Quran false. It is the word of Allah and surely Allah cannot have dictated any falses in his perfect book.
Sorry but it dosn't work that way, you don't just cherry pick the good things and disregard the parts you find disagreeable.