Is it bad to be patriotic?

[Domen]

I didn't want to resurrect an old thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=463799

So I start a new one here. On another forum I saw the following post:

The difference between the concepts of nationalism and patriotism is blurred, although the words do have a different connotation. Nationalism has always a bad connotation, whereas patriotism does not - especially when it comes in the form of constitutional patriotism. Nevertheless, I think that in the end both concepts are on the same slippery slope, and in doubt it is better to abstain from waving flags and singing national anthems.

And I replied to it in the following way:

and in doubt it is better to abstain from waving flags and singing national anthems.

Why? Manifesting your affiliation with some group, entity or heritage is by no means bad in itself. Should gays abstain from waving their rainbow flags in so called Love Parades as well? If you say this, everyone will call you a Homophobe. Perhaps you are a Patriotphobe then? Is this any better than being a Homophobe? Rather not. Or less stupid? Certainly not.

Why some people think that patriotism is bad, while for example for me patriotism has only positive connotations. Patriotism is when you love your country (and its people) not only "for" something but also "despite" some negative aspects. But in fact patriotism is when you do things to improve your country, regardless of what you think or say about it. So what exactly is so wrong about trying to improve the community in which you life and also being proud of its heritage and enjoying the opportunity of being part of it (even despite all of its negative features) rather than taking care just of your own belly to be always stuffed?

 

[Synobun]

The thing that is wrong with it is that everyone brings it to the next level and uses it to justify every unjustifiable act the state commits. They hold it over your head if you do not share the opinion. They look down upon you for being from another state. More importantly, they go to extreme lengths to make sure that patriotism is the only choice: Forced anthem singing, some suburbs requiring to have a flag pole, etc.

I'm all for loving your country and what it stands for, I really am, but people are using patriotism as a pawn to be stupid, bigoted, and violent. At this point, you're better off to simply not affiliate yourself with patriotism because most individuals are bound to label you as "one of those".

Either way, you don't need to be a patriot to improve your community.

 

[Domen]

is that everyone brings it to the next level and uses it to justify every unjustifiable act the state commits.

But this is what most people do even when they swear that they are not patriotic !!! For example I see guys who say "we are not nationalists like you stupid Poles, but we do support the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, let's blow up the whole shabby Middle East - the USA is da best and we rock!!!".

Plus using the word "everyone" is a rather risky step - surely not everyone, not even most of them IMHO.

but people are using patriotism as a pawn to be stupid, bigoted, and violent.

People are using various things as a pawn to be stupid, bigoted, and violent, simply because... they actually are (many of them).

But being stupid, bigoted and violent has nothing to do with either being patriotic or not being patriotic - these features occur independently.

They hold it over your head if you do not share the opinion.

But this is what a huge number of stupid, bigoted and violent people do with a hell of a lot of various opinions on various issues...

Once again - patriotism and bashing those who don't share your opinion (which is a feature of many people) have nothing to do with each other.

There are many people who despise patriotism and they also hold it over your head if you do not share the opinion but instead dare to be patriotic.

they go to extreme lengths to make sure that patriotism is the only choice: Forced anthem singing, some suburbs requiring to have a flag pole, etc.

Where does such things occur in the 21st century ???

I've heard about forced removal of crosses from schools (even from the religious education rooms) - but not about this.

At this point, you're better off to simply not affiliate yourself with patriotism because most individuals are bound to label you as "one of those".

Ah !!! - forced conformism. Something I don't like.

I prefer to have my own opinion in each case, rather than sticking to the majority just because it is opinion of majority, and not because of its content.

 

[Lillefix]

But in fact patriotism is when you do things to improve your country, regardless of what you think or say about it. So what exactly is so wrong about trying to improve the community in which you life and also being proud of its heritage and enjoying the opportunity of being part of it (even despite all of its negative features) rather than taking care just of your own belly to be always stuffed?

Is that in the dictionary somewhere?

In my opinion patriotism is the irrational belief that your country is more worth(and perhaps better) than anyone else's.

edit: I don't see any real difference between nationalism and patriotism, other than that nationalism has a more political undertone.

editedit: It might be slightly different for people like Catalans and Scots who don't have their own country.

 

[MobBoss]

Is that in the dictionary somewhere?

In my opinion patriotism is the irrational belief that your country is more worth(and perhaps better) than anyone else's.

Why is that irrational? And fwiw, i'd call that tribalism rather than patriotism since tribalism is the actual source of that belief.

But back to your point. You think it's irrational to believe that the UK for example, has more worth/is better than say, the Sudan? I mean, dont we keep lists nationally that measure a countrys worth (GNP, exports, imports, quality of life, life expectancy, income/poverty, etc. etc.)....? Are we not able to quantify nations thus?

Answer: of course we can (and do). So, its not exactly irrational at all.

And btw, there is nothing wrong with being a patriot. What is wrong is being an extremist, pro or con.

 

[Peck of Arabia]

Patriotism just seems the sensible option to me. You can't really change where you come from or what country you're from, so you can either despise who you are and be miserable about it all, or just accept and enjoy it.

 

[Domen]

In my opinion patriotism is the irrational belief that your country is more worth(and perhaps better) than anyone else's.

Nope. This is national chauvinism. People confuse it.

Confusing patriotism with national chauvinism is like confusing a social welfare state with a Marxist–Leninist state (just to show the scale of error).

Patriotism is not love to your homeland because you believe that it is better than all other. It is simply love to your homeland.

For example - you know that your wife is rather not the hottest woman on Earth, but you still love her.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Is that in the dictionary somewhere?

In my opinion patriotism is the irrational belief that your country is more worth(and perhaps better) than anyone else's.

edit: I don't see any real difference between nationalism and patriotism, other than that nationalism has a more political undertone.

editedit: It might be slightly different for people like Catalans and Scots who don't have their own country.

Agreed.

I consider patriotism to have negative connotations.

Loving your homeland is fine. Loving the political entity that happens to rule over it... eh, I'm not so sure. If it is better, then it just so happens to be better - give it a few centuries and it'll come apart again.

That's not to mention the historical issues. Patriots are just as wont to manipulate and confuse history as nationalists are - they're just subtler about it.

 

[Disgustipated]

I consider patriotic to be loving your homeland and not the government. So yes, I am patriotic. You have to protect your own first. Yes it would be fine and dandy if we all saw ourselves as human beings, but let's face it, people will attack you based on where you live. So you got to stick together. Just like a man protects his family, a man should protect his homeland. If you aren't patriotic, you aren't a real man.

As for the government, it needs to be wiped out and started from scratch. Either that, or let the states secede.

 

[Smellincoffee]

Humans are tribal creatures, so I don't think there's any getting around our inclination toward group loyalty; all the same, I think we should have that loyalty toward our immediate community -- our kinsfolk, our neighborhood or our city, and give it only tepidly toward larger entities. We must take caution there, for it is easy to get carried away by flag-waving...during the Great War, "patriotism" turned strident activists like the Pankhurst family in the UK into fanatical loyalists. Working men of a leftist bent who swore to never fight against their brethren in other countries were transformed by the ringing of bells and the singing of anthems into little pawns doing the bidding of their masters, like peasants serving for a lord.

 

[Synobun]

I consider patriotic to be loving your homeland and not the government. So yes, I am patriotic. You have to protect your own first. Yes it would be fine and dandy if we all saw ourselves as human beings, but let's face it, people will attack you based on where you live. So you got to stick together. Just like a man protects his family, a man should protect his homeland. If you aren't patriotic, you aren't a real man.

As for the government, it needs to be wiped out and started from scratch. Either that, or let the states secede.

Proving my point in the first reply. Thanks.

 

[Disgustipated]

Proving my point in the first reply. Thanks.

Nope, I read your first post, and my post doesn't relate to yours at all. Try again. I'm not some violent man, I'm a pacifist.

 

[Synobun]

Nope, I read your first post, and my post doesn't relate to yours at all. Try again. I'm not some violent man, I'm a pacifist.

"If you aren't patriotic, you aren't a real man."

Meanwhile...

"They hold it over your head if you do not share the opinion."

"I'm all for loving your country and what it stands for, I really am, but people are using patriotism as a pawn to be stupid, bigoted, and violent."

 

[Formaldehyde]

As I pointed out in the previous thread, which covered this very topic quite extensively, the issue really isn't a matter of patriotism but excessive nationalism.

 

[Gigaz]

I generally try to avoid criticizing other countries and being too enthusiastic about my own country. Instead, I criticize my own country and I try to speak in a positive way, if at all, about other countries.
Patriotism is not really damaging, but it would be much more useful for my country if everyone sees the negative aspects. Anyone can wave a flag.
Being negative about other countries is easy, too, because of incomplete knowledge and such.

 

[Leoreth]

Patriotism isn't bad.

But there are certain "patriots" who use it as an excuse to feel great about themselves for something they have nothing to do with, or gloss over some negative things their own country did.

I could give further, more concrete examples of unhelpful patriotism but I don't think it's a good idea to go down the ad hominem road.

 

[Dumanios]

Love your country. Be proud to be an X-ican. Just don't beat it over everyone's heads like this.

"Well, ya'll'd be speakin' German if it weren't fer us!"

 

[Tycho Brahe]

I don't like it when people make jokes about expanding the borders of their country. Not even if it is my own country.

 

[Tee Kay]

Mindful patriotism is a good thing. Mindless patriotism is best avoided.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

Heritage never fed nobody.