Is it bad to be patriotic?

[Formaldehyde]

Patriotism isn't bad.

But there are certain "patriots" who use it as an excuse to feel great about themselves for something they have nothing to do with, or gloss over some negative things their own country did.

I could give further, more concrete examples of unhelpful patriotism but I don't think it's a good idea to go down the ad hominem road.

Why do you seem to hate America?

 

[Domen]

Ok I think it was a bad idea for me to start this thread while at the same time participating in similar discussion on the already mentioned forum (see my first post in this thread). Since I don't want to discuss basically the same issue in two different forums at the same time - below I will give you the link to that forum, and you can address various statements from my posts from that thread also here, if you want - and I will reply to them here in such case:

http://www.historum.com/philosophy-political-science-sociology/52039-you-nationalist-patriot-11.html

I have the same nick there as here.

======================================

Sorry for this but otherwise I would simply have to copy-paste entire lines from my posts there, or re-write them...

Because people have similar arguments all the time in such discussions - regardless of the forum in which they take place.

there are certain "patriots" who use it as an excuse to feel great about themselves

True. But every excuse is good to feel great about yourself. As long as it is not connected with feeling bad about others.

Mindful patriotism is a good thing. Mindless patriotism is best avoided.

This statement can as well be generalized:

Mindful ... [put anything here] ... is a good thing. Mindless ... [put anything here] ... is best avoided.

In general - thinking is good, not thinking (being mindless) is bad.

Heritage never fed nobody.

But without heritage you have no traditional dishes = you have no great, yummy and diversed meals from all over the world.

I generally try to avoid criticizing other countries and being too enthusiastic about my own country. Instead, I criticize my own country and I try to speak in a positive way, if at all, about other countries.
Patriotism is not really damaging, but it would be much more useful for my country if everyone sees the negative aspects. Anyone can wave a flag.
Being negative about other countries is easy, too, because of incomplete knowledge and such.

I think that throughout history this was generally understood by patriots - even by nationalists. For example Roman Dmowski - a Polish nationalist from early 20th century - wrote in his book "Myśli nowoczesnego Polaka" ("Thoughts of a modern Pole"):

"Everything which is Polish is mine: I cannot reject anything! I am allowed to be proud of what is great in Poland, but I must also accept the humiliation which falls on this nation for what is feeble in it".

BTW - I always try to find positive things about all countries - both my own and other. But I also criticize all countries - both my own and other.

Being negative about other countries is easy, too, because of incomplete knowledge and such.

Yes. It is generally much easier to speak about negative things than about positive things.

To speak about positive things you have to actually know something about them. While complaining and criticizing is always easy.

 

[Tee Kay]

Heritage never fed nobody.

Wrong. Tourism provides a living for tens of millions of people.

 

[Domen]

Oh - good point Kangaru.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

Wrong. Tourism provides a living for tens of millions of people.

Exactly, look at Egypt. Tourism accounts for I believe some 80% of their economy making their revolution and current turbulence very costly.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

My nation is all of humanity and I regard the current states as being nothing more than obstacles to the liberation of my people.

 

[Traitorfish]

A patriot is somebody who prefers an evil man with the right flag to a good man with the wrong one. Can't see how that's anything but objectionable.


Not that I imagine anyone's surprised by that response.

 

[Flying Pig]

Is that in the dictionary somewhere?

In my opinion patriotism is the irrational belief that your country is more worth(and perhaps better) than anyone else's.

edit: I don't see any real difference between nationalism and patriotism, other than that nationalism has a more political undertone.

editedit: It might be slightly different for people like Catalans and Scots who don't have their own country.

Patriotism is simply pride in one's homeland; the idea that it's 'better' than any other is chauvanism, with various prefixes depending on precisely what you like about it.

Why is that irrational? And fwiw, i'd call that tribalism rather than patriotism since tribalism is the actual source of that belief.

But back to your point. You think it's irrational to believe that the UK for example, has more worth/is better than say, the Sudan? I mean, dont we keep lists nationally that measure a countrys worth (GNP, exports, imports, quality of life, life expectancy, income/poverty, etc. etc.)....? Are we not able to quantify nations thus?

Answer: of course we can (and do). So, its not exactly irrational at all.

And btw, there is nothing wrong with being a patriot. What is wrong is being an extremist, pro or con.

There's a difference between that and saying that 'the UK is worth more': the UK makes more money, yes, the UK is more powerful, yes, but every human being is 'worth' just as much in the eyes of God, if you'll pardon my turn of phrase. Countries, when it comes down to it, have no intrinsic 'worth'; their value lies in the benefits that they bring their citizens by existing.

A patriot is somebody who prefers an evil man with the right flag to a good man with the wrong one. Can't see how that's anything but objectionable.

Not that I imagine anyone's surprised by that response.

That's quite extreme, but I have to say I'm not all that surprised you said that - I give you Alexander's words that 'to me every bad Greek is a barbarian and every good barbarian a Greek'. I hardly think he could have been described as unpatriotic!

 

[Formaldehyde]

Exactly, look at Egypt. Tourism accounts for I believe some 80% of their economy making their revolution and current turbulence very costly.

About 2% of their GNP is a result of tourism.

 

[MobBoss]

Why do you seem to hate America?

Ah irony.

 

[WindFish]

Wrong. Tourism provides a living for tens of millions of people.

I thought Mr Dictator was talking about the think-tank

 

[aelf]

Alright, you're a patriot. So what did you do for your country?

An armchair patriot is no patriot, but most likely a not-so-discreet jingoist.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Everyone who says nationalism is bad is just hella jealous of USA#1FOREVER!

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

When you think about it, it's quite silly. So I'll say no.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

About 2% of their GNP is a result of tourism.

I was half shooting from the hip and half being facetious, but anyway the Washington Post puts tourism at 11% of the Egyptian economy. That is still a ridiculous margin when compared to other countries.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/14/AR2011021405746.html

 

[sophie]

It's never bad to be an American patriot, and I will fight anybody who says otherwise.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Ah irony.

The "irony" is that you don't get how absurd that sort of comment is. That your incessant strawmen in this regard obviously have nothing at all to do with patriotism.

I was half shooting from the hip and half being facetious, but anyway the Washington Post puts tourism at 11% of the Egyptian economy. That is still a ridiculous margin when compared to other countries.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/14/AR2011021405746.html

Well, they would be wrong by a factor of over 5 based on a GNP of $508B.

Tourism is one of the most important sectors in Egypt's economy. More than 12.8 million tourists visited Egypt in 2008, providing revenues of nearly $11 billion. The sector employs about 12 percent of Egypt's workforce. [1]

That works out to slightly over 2%, which is still sizable when compared to other countries.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

You do realize that you are trying to use almost 4 and 5 year old figures in conjunction with current numbers, right?

 

[Formaldehyde]

The Egyptian GNP hasn't changed all that much in the past 5 years. Check out the graph at the URL I provided. Or are you claiming that the Egyptian tourism industry went from $11B in 2008 to $55B today?

The tourism industry actually took a hit recently. For some odd reason many people didn't feel like visiting for the past couple of years, as the article you posted points out. But it is now finally responding. The Morsi government has actually made it a high priority as I mentioned in a recent thread about Egypt.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

The Egyptian GNP hasn't changed all that much in the past 5 years. Check out the graph at the URL I provided. Or are you claiming that the Egyptian tourism industry went from $11B in 2008 to $55B today?

If it did, those numbers would suggest a pyramid scheme.