Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
With a sphinx thrown in for good measure.
Is it bad to be patriotic?
- Thread starter Domen
- Start date
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Patriotism only makes sense for international sports as a determining factor which team to support. Because that is using a silly concept to support a silly concept.
Otherwise it's just silly.
Otherwise it's just silly.
rugbyLEAGUEfan
Deity
Which therefore makes it good
Please, try to refrain from fictional responses. These "good men" are imaginary.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
This one ???
As silly as - for example - being proud of achievements of your father or grandfather.
Especially when your grandfather is just a corpse that you would gladly use to feed vultures (quoting Traitorfish from another thread regarding his mother).
rugbyLEAGUEfan
Deity
Funny how pride in the achievements of ones forefathers is rarely tempered by disdain for their sins. It's always "I have no reason to feel guilty for such and such, I wasn't around then, it wasn't me" but this never seems to apply when they do good.
Ever been to Germany?
rugbyLEAGUEfan
Deity
Unfortunately that kind of maturity when looking back is the exception rather than the rule. Here in Australia, somehow we all have equity in Don Bradman's batting 80 years ago but none when it comes to our treatment of aborigines 50 years ago.
Or fifty minutes ago.
rugbyLEAGUEfan
Deity
Point being though, people want it both ways which is BS.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
But this applies to all humans not to patriots specifically.
Not even mentioning that many humans are not capable of disdaining even their own sins.
Don't worry - I have read about your treatment of aborigines 50 years ago. BTW - Australians are somehow not "accused" for being great nationalists or patriots, yet they still don't really want to admit in public how they treated aborigines even as recently as in the 1970s... Strange...
Nor do they admit that Australia is so xenophobic and anti-immigration (although perhaps today it is much less so than it was for example 50 years ago).
Another example:
Our fellow forum communists despise patriotism, yet they still don't admit that communist countries commited war crimes and other bad things... Strange...
rugbyLEAGUEfan
Deity
But there is distinctly hypocritical train of thought that seems to permeate historical discussion of ones nation. A flat out denial that one bares any responsibility for the crimes of past generations while revelling in the achievements of earlier countrymen. This line of thinking would seem insane if applied to how one views their country in the here and now, yet is rarely questioned when discussing history.
Peck of Arabia
Sociable Recluse
I'm not proud to be British, that was just a genetic accident.
I do like being British though. I get a weird, giddy sort of thrill at the size and detail of the Wikipedia pages on 'Anglophobia' and 'Anti-British sentiment'
Is that Patriotism? Or just kind of odd?
I do like being British though. I get a weird, giddy sort of thrill at the size and detail of the Wikipedia pages on 'Anglophobia' and 'Anti-British sentiment'
Is that Patriotism? Or just kind of odd?
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
The same hypocritical train of thought permeates historical discussion of the history of - for example - Communism, even though all declared Communists despise patriotism and nations. But how many times on this forum I have seen claims that the Bolsheviks were the good guys in the Polish-Soviet war of 1919 - 1920, that they were defending human rights of workers and peasants against bloodthirsty Polish Catholic primitive vampire nationalists? Etc., etc.
On TWC forum I saw claims by declared "internationalists & communists", who claimed that Katyn was a "minor event", in which "only ardent and die-hard evil Polish nationalists" were killed, who deserved to die anyway. And they denied all other-than-Katyn Soviet war crimes against Poles.
rugbyLEAGUEfan
Deity
For the record, by any reasonable definition of the term "patriotic", I certainly consider myself to be that way. I guess I'm just railing against mindless patriotism.
Australia #1
Australia #1
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
There is a difference between "baring responsibility for" and "revelling in".
I'm not sure if you noticed that these two verbs have completely different meaning.
You can revel in something for achieving which you wasn't responsible, on the other hand you can't be responsible for something you didn't do.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Well no, since there's a personal relationship you can have with your father or grandfather which is lacking when talking about 'a country'. In that case the irrational emotional response you have to their achievement is irrational and emotional, but not silly. You don't think it's silly to have the same emotional response to a country as you have towards your close relatives and loved ones?
Regardless, the topic of the thread is patriotism which goes beyond 'being proud of'.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
A plausible analogy, yeah. I would be an "ideological patriot", if you will, to prefer an evil man with a red flag to a good man with a (say) blue one. But, I don't, so I'm not. However fine that evil man's moustache may be.This one ???
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
With a country you can have "material" relationship (since country is not a person, but a "matter" - so "personal" is a wrong word here).
But when your grandfather dies, you can't have "personal" relationship with him any more - because he is not a person anymore, but just a corpse (according to Traitorfish at least). So how can you have a personal relationship with your deceased grandfather, but not with a (equally lifeless) country?
Perhaps "lover of ideology" would be a much better term to use here. Patriot is derived from "Patria" - meaning homeland. So you cannot say about "ideological patriots", unless there is inseparable and eternal connection between a certain homeland and a certain ideology (which is not the case).
Why necessarily "the same"? Gosh - I don't even have "the same" emotional response to all my close relatives and loved ones together. I have a more or less different (which doesn't always mean - worse or better; stronger or weaker) emotional response towards each of my close relatives and loved ones.
You clearly don't have "the same" emotional response towards - for example - both your mother, your sister and your wife - do you?
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