Is it possible to have a democracy with a "free" press?

[Ecofarm]

No it is not democracy. I don't know what you would call it but it is like if I give you the choice of 2 used cars (no returns allowed) and tell you only about the color and the fuzzy dice that come with one. Now would you say you have a free choice if you have no other information.

Third party politics? Sorry if someone didn't go to college and/or hear about such things.

Also it is not about bias. Bias is unavoidable. It is about not discussing substantive questions even in a biased manner because personal caricatures “arrogant, nice guy, dumb guy, regular guy, elitist, nice haircut, expensive haircut” are more entertaining to talk about and sell more corn flakes.

I take offense at your insinuation that I recommend corn flakes.

Now there is some substantive discussion but these caricatures just take off and are easier and more entertaining to talk about so the substance is drowned out.

Substantive discussion about the impossibility of an informed consumer OR informed voter without a government enforced authority on perspective?

ps. I pwn top-of-page.

 

[Angst]

It must be, that is.

 

[Phlegmak]

The problem is that we live in a world where most people are stupid, and sadly those people are allowed to vote.

Most people are not stupid.

 

[Perfection]

the extent to which a press is free is, IMO, pretty much the extent to which it is decentralized, which is why the internets is so good.

I dunno about that, Fifty. I think a lot of journalsism is better when there is an organisation behind it editing it and providing additional resources. Thee CNNs of the world do provide very important services. I would think it wouldn't be good to call them breaking up itno a bunch of pinhead bloggers particularly free or good.

 

[drachasor]

I dunno about that, Fifty. I think a lot of journalsism is better when there is an organisation behind it editing it and providing additional resources. Thee CNNs of the world do provide very important services. I would think it wouldn't be good to call them breaking up itno a bunch of pinhead bloggers particularly free or good.

The nice thing about decentralized news is that it isn't beholden to any particular interest. Modern TV news is about making a buck, when you get down to it. That means it isn't about information or truth, but about entertainment. So it doesn't focus on substance, but instead of fluff and sensationalism. It's especially bad since almost all TV news is controlled by one of a very small number of large companies.

Some organization is certainly nice though, I agree with you there. Best to make it as independent from particular interests as possible. There will always be some biases (and mistakes), but there is a lot we can do to improve the current situation.

 

[Fugitive Sisyphus]

Because of free press, people make wrong decisions. Therefore, we should force people to make "right" decisions by forcing media outlets to give the "right" information.

That isn't freedom, that is tyranny.

 

[Phlegmak]

Well, we have several options for our media:

1. Privately funded free press (CNN)
2. Publically funded free press (BBC)
3. Governmentally controlled, nonfree press (Iran's news agency)

So, obviously, the first two are preferred. In my opinion, either are ok. I'm satisfied with the US's private, commercially-based news. The only thing I don't like about them is the media monopolies that have developed in the last few years. We need those broken up and more regulation (regulation to prevent media monopolies).

Regarding the entertainment, commercial nature of the free press in the US, that's simply a side effect of our free press. Since our free press isn't taxpayer-funded like the BBC, the news corporations are forced to simultaneously entertain as well as inform to capture our eyeballs. That's ok in my opinion.

 

[Perfection]

That means it isn't about information or truth, but about entertainment.

Not neccessarily. Information and truth are things people want to watch in addition to entertainment, and at many venues they get it.

 

[drachasor]

Not neccessarily. Information and truth are things people want to watch in addition to entertainment, and at many venues they get it.

Yes, and focusing on celebrity soap opera crap when Bush is eroding the foundations of our democracy, when Iraq is in turmoil and getting worse, when Congress is doing nothing (for many reasons), when Russia still has massive amount of nuclear material and weapons unsecured, when our healthcare system is in shambled (and getting worse due to changing policies), when global warming threatens us all, and when a dozen other things are going wrong means everything is working just fine. Oh, and when they do focus on these things, it is often filled with awful tripe, shoddy or non-existent analysis, and sensationalist reporting instead of a careful look at what is actually going on.

Large corporations controlling pretty much all the news people listen to and focusing it on the flashiest crap does not serve our democracy. It keeps people uninformed on issues, unable to handle their responsibilities as citizens, and more idealogically driven. In short, it stops people from thinking, rather than encouraging them to think. An unthinking populace spells the downfall of a democracy.

-Drachasor

 

[Ecofarm]

Bush and large corporations, huh? DAMN those bastards! Forcing me to buy stuff, and read stuff, and well, grrrrrrrrr DAMN them! The problem with the market is the uninformed consumer. And I suppose you would argue that it is the government (and corps) who fail to educate people. They pwn us. We are victims. Going to WalMart, brb.

 

[Perfection]

Yes, and focusing on celebrity soap opera crap when Bush is eroding the foundations of our democracy, when Iraq is in turmoil and getting worse, when Congress is doing nothing (for many reasons), when Russia still has massive amount of nuclear material and weapons unsecured, when our healthcare system is in shambled (and getting worse due to changing policies), when global warming threatens us all, and when a dozen other things are going wrong means everything is working just fine. Oh, and when they do focus on these things, it is often filled with awful tripe, shoddy or non-existent analysis, and sensationalist reporting instead of a careful look at what is actually going on.

People want entertainment news, people want real news, people want partison bickering, there are venues for all of these. Since all news isn't like this, and a whole lot of independant small news sources are like it, I really don't see the problem. You can't make people suddenly care about every political matter.

 

[Rambuchan]

It is only partly due to news media organisations being commercial entities that democracy is under threat. But there are some far more serious problems facing democracy in the nation that leads the free world, rooted in the current state of the news media.

These are best illustrated by reference to Plato's "Allegory of the Cave", put forth in "The Republic" (see here from where I quote the summary).

"In the allegory, Plato likens people untutored in the Theory of Forms to prisoners chained in a cave, unable to turn their heads. All they can see is the wall of the cave. Behind them burns a fire. Between the fire and the prisoners there is a parapet, along which puppeteers can walk. The puppeteers, who are behind the prisoners, hold up puppets that cast shadows on the wall of the cave. The prisoners are unable to see these puppets, the real objects, that pass behind them. What the prisoners see and hear are shadows and echoes cast by objects that they do not see. Here is an illustration of Plato’s Cave":



Translated into today's reality:

~ The Wall of the Cave is the news media, our TV screens if you like.

~ The Shadows on the cave wall are the Media Messages that the Puppeteers want/allow us to see.

~ The Puppeteers are a conglomeration of two increasingly complimentary parties: The Government & The Corporate Elite, who own an increasing share of the news media.

~ We, the voting public, are The Prisoners.

~ The reason why we cannot turn our heads to see the actions of The Puppeteers and The Objects which cast The Shadows is the real juice of the matter.

 

[Rambuchan]

Because of free press, people make wrong decisions. Therefore, we should force people to make "right" decisions by forcing media outlets to give the "right" information.

That isn't freedom, that is tyranny.

I suppose it would also be "tyranny" to "force" doctors (by way of professional codes and regulations) to give patients the "right" treatment too? Or would you rather doctors are free to administer whatever the hell they please, regardless of the effects upon our health?

edit:

No it is not democracy. I don't know what you would call it but it is like if I give you the choice of 2 used cars (no returns allowed) and tell you only about the color and the fuzzy dice that come with one. Now would you say you have a free choice if you have no other information.

Good analogy.

As with used car sales, the market for information, is increasingly like "The Market for Lemons".

 

[Arwon]

I think it's unfortunate that in English "free" as in gratis and "free" as in libre get run together as one word. It creates some very unfortunate and unwarranted mental associations.

 

[Rambuchan]

It's the latter meaning of "free" that is the greater cause for concern these days.

There is no such thing as the free press, at least with regard to the major outlets such as CNN, FoxNews, or MSNBC. They're all beholden to major corporations for those advertisement dollars and to the government for access. The only reliable source of information is the free internet-based news groups. At this point, you'd be more accurately informed to not watch the news at all. Even though you might know less, at least you wouldn't be lied to on a daily basis and have the hard task of sorting through it all.

Where do you, or anyone else, see PBS in all of this?

 

[drachasor]

People want entertainment news, people want real news, people want partison bickering, there are venues for all of these. Since all news isn't like this, and a whole lot of independant small news sources are like it, I really don't see the problem. You can't make people suddenly care about every political matter.

Tell me where on television a person can get meaningful news and conversation about the major events gripping our nation. I don't see it anywhere, and it is leaving people uninformed. They can't get that even if they want it.

Additionally, a lot of these large corporations are cutting back the money that goes to their news teams, so there will be less investigation and less hard-hitting reporting.

-Drachasor

 

[Ecofarm]

Tell me where on television a person can get meaningful news and conversation about the major events gripping our nation. I don't see it anywhere, and it is leaving people uninformed. They can't get that even if they want it.
Additionally, a lot of these large corporations are cutting back the money that goes to their news teams, so there will be less investigation and less hard-hitting reporting.

-Drachasor

Left wing:
CNN
PBS
ABC
NBC
CBS
ABS
NBS
MSNBS
Some Fox hosts
BBC

Right Wing:
Fox
Some CNN hosts

Internet sources:
Need I go on?

Newspapers:
Left wing/right wing:
Have we achieved news saturation yet?


"But I can't find me no news! I'm ignorant cause there just ain't no information to be found!"

Behave.

 

[drachasor]

Your post is completely irrelevant to my point, Ecofarm.

 

[Mark1031]

"But I can't find me no news! I'm ignorant cause there just ain't no information to be found!"

Behave.

I never said you can't find news, even real boring policy news. You can watch freaking cspan, to some extent PBS for eg frontline does some good investigative stuff. The point is not that it isn't there it is that it is drowned out for most people by infotainment which was not there 20 yrs ago. And even major news sources like NYTimes pick up on these infotainment story lines while obscure blogs are uncovering actual news in some cases. And please with the left/right. People arguing about candidates haircuts, exwives, and cleavage or who is ahead in the polls today compared to yesterday is not news but entertainment, it only seems to be left/right biased based on whos haircut they are talking about.

 

[Perfection]

Tell me where on television a person can get meaningful news and conversation about the major events gripping our nation.

Frontline.