Is it worth it to get monty to declare war on saladin in this situation?

[Artifex1]

Score is 776 saladin, 700 monty, and I am at 630. Saladin kept rexing at me and annoys me.

I do not have much of a military. I am at peace with saladin and monty. Monty is pleased with me. Saladin annoyed. I have accepted a proposed trade embargo on saladin that monty wanted. Monty and I share same religion, saladin is a different one.

I have a pretty weak military atm. Monty will declare war for aesthetics, alphabet, horseback rising and philosophy. Everyone is at peace atm.

 

[Refar]

Scores dont tell that much. 4 Techs including Philo - Liberalism Path - seems a bit overrated to me, On th other hand - if your lead is that big, you probably will have no trouble getting liberalism anyway...

What are you hoping to gain from a War between them ? If it's just to slow Saladin down, i think it might not be worth it.

If you are planing to join in and take some cities... it might pay of

 

[xanadux]

I would do it. If he is that far behind in tech, giving him techs won't help him that much, plus Monte probably won't just launch a fake war. I would start building military so you can join in when Monte asks you to and hopefully scavenge some cities.

 

[Artifex1]

I would do it. If he is that far behind in tech, giving him techs won't help him that much, plus Monte probably won't just launch a fake war. I would start building military so you can join in when Monte asks you to and hopefully scavenge some cities.

Well what happened is I got a special event, a religious wedding (I chose option 3) which was -3 relations with saladin and +1 with monty. After which saladin immediatly declared war on me and I got monty to come in for half the price (2 techs). I took 4 cities from saladin, then called a cease fire.

So I am pleased with monty and I have all my forces over on east end of map where I finished my war with saladin. A few turns pass. Then monty declares war on me out of the blue way over on the west end where I have lightly defened cities. There's a stack of 20 or so damn units 1 square away from my most important science city (which I am going to lose) so I am scewed now. I thought monty and I were cool? I guess not.

I had something like a +9 or 10 modifier with monty very high (pleased or friendly). Anyway that is BS a close ally stabing me in the back like that, now I am gonna lose a lot of cities to monty, Ithought he was my friend. I made a bad choice to ally with him.

Game over I guess. I was in the lead too 1250, to montys 1050, and saladins 850.

 

[Gocho]

And that's why we love/hate Monty so much!

 

[oyzar]

Don't trust monty... If he isn't fighting anyone ods are he'll go for you...

 

[MyOtherName]

Anyway that is BS a close ally stabing me in the back like that, now I am gonna lose a lot of cities to monty, Ithought he was my friend. I made a bad choice to ally with him.

It sounds like allying him probably wasn't a bad choice -- your problem was painting a target on yourself and giving him clear access to your back.

 

[RockTheCazbah87]

Oohhhhh, thats gonna smart. Classic Monty kick-in-the-teeth there. You can always create a 50-strong stack of Modern Armor with WB to cheer yourself up...

 

[The Rook]

I had something like a +9 or 10 modifier with monty very high (pleased or friendly). Anyway that is BS a close ally stabing me in the back like that, now I am gonna lose a lot of cities to monty, Ithought he was my friend. I made a bad choice to ally with him.

Not close enough for Monty, though with many leaders you would have been completely safe, no matter how strong they were in relation to you. If you get "friendly" with a leader, they will never make a decision to go to war with you. Sometimes a leader will "declare" when friendly, but the "decision" to attack you was made many turns ago (at less than friendly). At "pleased" though, there are many who will decide to attack if they consider you a soft target.

You might want to check the "Peace Probabilities" in the c4bts Reference Guide. The guide can be greatly helpful for working out diplomatic requirements with various leaders. If an AI has the following attributes (or similar), and your Peace Probability with them is <100%, then watch your back...

favours: military
trains units: extreme
aggression level: very high
attack courage: very high

 

[The Rook]

BTW Saladin would probably make a better ally than Monty on paper. He will never make a decision to attack you when he is "Pleased". He is more receptive to tech trades. It is generally easier to keep good relations with him (e.g sharing religion can eventually yield +6 with Saladin, versus +3 with Monty). He isn't a complete pacifist (trains units: often). Perhaps you should have teamed up with Saladin to wipe Monty off the map?

 

[Gliese 581]

Monty is never cool with anyone basically.. but if I had to put my faith in him or Shaka I guess he would have it.

 

[reknaw]

One game I remember I was the runaway tech leader, and had just upgraded all my CG3 Infantry to Mech. Inf., and Monty (who was Pleased with me at the time) declares war and attacks my coastal cities with galleons full of Knights....

The only time I trust Monty is when I see the message "The Aztec civilisation has been destroyed."

 

[Zanttu]

Monty is never cool with anyone basically..

That's not true... I've had many games where Monty was my ally/attack dog. But that's only possible when you aren't his neighbor. There should be at least one civ between you and monty, to be sure he doesn't attack. Of course he also needs to have someone else to attack, Monty just can't live in peace. In this game it would have been better move to team up with Saladin, if possible.

 

[The Rook]

I think one problem is getting friendly with Monty. The only civ who cares less about religion is Willem. His favourite civic (Police State) arrives late in the game. Most rep modifiers take time to reach their potential, and if he is your neighbour he will most likely attack you long before you can become buds.

Of course, he is also a complete psychopath, who cares about nothing other than his military might, and he always overestimates his power in relation to yours.

 

[futurehermit]

To buddy up with Monty:

1) Gift him tech/open borders this can take him to pleased

2) Give in to any and all demands

3) Bribe him to war with an opponent and go to war with him (Alphabet early is a priority if you encounter Shaka/Monty you want to gift them tech early to get them to pleased and to bribe them to attack someone else)

4) Avoid close borders if at all possible

5) Do NOT trade with his worst enemy

 

[King Jason]

2) Give in to any and all demands

I find this is a biggy for most exessively hostile opponents. In many a case, not only does it net you the +1 "you gave into our demand" modifier, but you can also nab a +4 (or so) "Our trade relations have been fair and forthright".

If one of your first diplomatic interactions with a civ is a demand (usually for techs) and you give in, you'll get the fair trade bonus too.

But there are many leaders that are widely known to be traitors. Monty is one, both Russians can be traitorous cretins. Once you get a good understanding for the personalities, unless you play the "random personilities" option, you can develop a good strategy for the diplomatic atmosphere, despite what the modifiers may indicate.

 

[The Rook]

I find this is a biggy for most exessively hostile opponents. In many a case, not only does it net you the +1 "you gave into our demand" modifier, but you can also nab a +4 (or so) "Our trade relations have been fair and forthright".

The +4 trade relations boost is probably the easiest to attain with a pure warmonger, as they always seem to linger behind in research. But some civs are always going to be easier to buddy up with than others, especially those who favour early/mid game civics that you would normally use anyway (Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy etc).

 

[Gooblah]

Ouch....but not unexpected. You had a weak military and was made even weaker by the stretching out of your forces. Are you still at war with Saladin? If you captured 4 cities, you may be able to demand war with Monty as part of a peace deal. That seals off the eastern border, letting you move troops back west. The problem here is that you aren't making close to enough troops. Having a few soldiers for garrison duty won't cut it with Monty/Shaka/Rome/Celts/Isabella around. You need to have a large standing army ready to play offense.

 

[Morgrad]

The only time I trust Monty is when I see the message "The Aztec civilisation has been destroyed."

Too true.

He does make a fantastic pet dog if the conditions are right.

You first mistake in this game is to be on a continent with Saladin and Monty and being able to state "I do not have much of a military." Saladin is a cold-hearted opportunistic backstabber who will not hesitate to attack someone he doesn't like, and Monty would attack his own grandmother if she dared show weakness.

Keep in mind that "show weakness" actually means "Monty percieves weakness" which usually means "Monty has more units - even if they're two-ages out of date".

 

[Belisar]

You first mistake in this game is to be on a continent with Saladin and Monty and being able to state "I do not have much of a military."

how very true

Of course, he is also a complete psychopath, who cares about nothing other than his military might, and he always overestimates his power in relation to yours.

Especially true for monty and some others like Izzy. This makes the game more interesting because otherwise you would always know you are safe if...

He does make a fantastic pet dog

Like many agressive leaders this can be a huge advantage for the human player, you just have to play your cards right.