Is our society moving from Guilt to Shame ?

Hrothbern

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Much to do lately about shaming.
A kind of last resource of the many powerless to get their opinion and influence heard, when people in the establishment behave badly, and seem to act without a moral conscience
Also: many people and articles do not differentiate that much between guilt and shame, as if it would be the same.

My feel is that in ordere to rectify a bad behaviour.... shame is a poor substitute for guilt in cases where appealing to good conscience would still be enough.
My main consideration is that guilt keeps the door open to improve and shame is a shut off mechanism.

This is basically the point of view on which I invite to a discussion here.


Some possibly helpfull statement in a big scientific article:
from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3083636/
A good and long read.

"Shame and guilt are not equally “moral” emotions

One of the consistent themes emerging from empirical research is that shame and guilt are not equally “moral” emotions. On balance, guilt appears to be the more adaptive emotion, benefiting individuals and their relationships in a variety of ways (Baumeister et al. 1994, 1995a,b; Tangney 1991, 1995a,b), but there is growing evidence that shame is a moral emotion that can easily go awry (Tangney 1991, 1995a,b; Tangney et al. 1996b)"

"Hiding versus amending
Research consistently shows that shame and guilt lead to contrasting motivations or “action tendencies” (Ketelaar & Au 2003, Lewis 1971, Lindsay-Hartz 1984, Tangney 1993, Tangney et al. 1996a, Wallbott & Scherer 1995, Wicker et al. 1983). On the one hand, shame corresponds with attempts to deny, hide, or escape the shame-inducing situation. Physiological research has linked the shame experience with elevated levels of proinflammatory cytokine and cortisol (Dickerson et al. 2004a), which can trigger postural signs of deference and self-concealment (see New Directions in Research on Shame and Guilt: Physiological Correlates of Shame). Guilt, on the other hand, corresponds with reparative actions including confessions, apologies, and undoing the consequences of the behavior. On the whole, empirical evidence evaluating the action tendencies of people experiencing shame and guilt suggests that guilt promotes constructive, proactive pursuits, whereas shame promotes defensiveness, interpersonal separation, and distance"

"Why might shame, but not guilt, interfere with other-oriented empathy? Shame’s inherently egocentric focus on the “bad self” (as opposed to the bad behavior) derails the empathic process. Individuals in the throes of shame turn tightly inward, and are thus less able to focus cognitive and emotional resources on the harmed other (Tangney et al. 1994). In contrast, people experiencing guilt are specifically focused on the bad behavior, which in turn highlights the negative consequences experienced by others, thereby fostering an empathic response and motivating people to “right the wrong.”

EDIT
some notes:
Recent articles on shame and guilt are often from christian (US) sources, I think relecting the basic 1;1 relation with the Christian God based on guilt on sinns.
Other western cultures than the White Anglosaxon, have much lower use of the word shame.
And ofc Japanese culture is reknown for her shame culture.
a graph of the frequency of the two words over the last centuries, showing the recent increase in the word shame.
Schermopname (1212).png
 
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I mean you can't force people to feel guilty but you can shame them.

exactly

So IF your objective is to FORCE the opinion of other people.... shame is the way to go

But is FORCING your opinion on someone else really a good thing to do ???

!
 
Swarte Piet is shameful. :/

^^

haha

and serious
What happened in the past around slavery etc, IS something I can feel ashamed of.... and at the same time I can do nothing positive or constructive with that shame.
What happens now IS something I can feel bad about (my conscience telling me that) and THAT is something that will support going in discussion here in my country about Swarte Piet, hoping to convince my fellow citizens that we should have rainbow coloured Swarte Piets.
 
I've never been able to see much difference between the two, tbh.

And having read the definitions you give of them, I still can't see much difference.

As for shaming being something that you can do to another, guilt-trips are equally forced on others.

Equally, if guilt is a private feeling, shame can be too.

(To my great shame, I feel guilty for writing this post. Which is a pity, if not a great shame.)

Furthermore, I've always found both guilt and shame to be rather unproductive emotions. Though I've had my share of both.
 
I think we're already moving away from shame, it has become an inefficient weapon.

When Thomas Smith accused Sargon of Akkad of telling some British politician that he "wouldn't even rape" her, Sargon of Akkad just nodded and said: "Yes, I did exactly that." and wouldn't have none of the moralizing of Thomas Smith.

When Jean-François Gariépy was called out by Steven Bonnell II for having had sex with a 19 year old, mentally handicapped girl, he just stated that yes, that is what he did, and that he does not care about the moral outrage of Steven Bonnell II.

Clearly, these are examples that were chosen very carefully and make a lot of sense.
 
exactly

So IF your objective is to FORCE the opinion of other people.... shame is the way to go

But is FORCING your opinion on someone else really a good thing to do ???

!
Shame is a useful social tool. That it can be taken too far is both obvious and unavoidable. I don't think we should stop trying to shame Trump, for example, even though the man can't be shamed. Sometimes the shaming is as much about reinforcing societies values as it is about trying to get someone to change their behavior.
 
As for shaming being something that you can do to another, guilt-trips are equally forced on others.

IF a guilt-trip is of a real forcing character... I agree with you.

IF you appeal to the positive values in the conscience of someone else, without forcing hell and damnation if not agreed, you open a constructive way forward.
 
exactly

So IF your objective is to FORCE the opinion of other people.... shame is the way to go

But is FORCING your opinion on someone else really a good thing to do ???

It's quite effective, especially given how much of modern political debate seems to revolve around 'proving' how 'morally superior' one is to one's opponents. But I think its effectiveness is decreasing somewhat, as people are getting shame fatigue.
 
Shame as a tactic isn't new, it's just far more pronounced now due to social media. There were entire political and religious sects throughout history that depended on shame as an integral component of their doctrine. Most smaller communities use the inertia of the threat of shame to enforce a homogeneous social structure.

Both shame and guilt are ineffective tools for correcting behaviour if they are your first, and only, pick. Shame can be powerful if limited but loses impact if consistently wielded as a weapon.
 
I've made a Trump ostrakon and have it sitting on my desk.

For, you know, if we institute some of the other salutary political practices of the ancient Greeks.
 
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Shame is overrated because of the social media bubbles people live in. They do not represent the world at large. The apparent "consensus" created by (within) these bubbles does not extend to the actual reality of the diverse people, most of whom are aways outside any one bubble.

The contemporary effect of social fragmentation ("identities", self-selected news and "facts", "global" outlooks instead of local ones, etc) very much weakens shame as a constraint on other people's actions. If the target of shaming is outside the bubble, it will just do as it please, and the opinion of the members of the bubble (which seems all-important to them) may end up shown to be powerless. And yes, this is an observation that applies to the Trump thing.

Guilt is of course more powerful because it operates on an internal level. It requires having acquired some belief from outside, but afterwards it operates independently and tends to be long-lasting. Whereas shame is shattered as soon as the bubble that originated it gets burst in public. Shame operates kind of in the bully principle: be scared, we're powerful... until we're challenged and shown not to be!
 
Guilt is a normal acknowledgement that we have wronged others or ourselves by poorly carried out even impetuous actions. There is nothing unhealthy about self-reflection. It is how decision making is evaluated and how maturity unfolds.

Shame is unhealthy obsessive self-reflection about actions we may or may not be responsible for. You can't change the past, only the eternal now.

Sin means missing the target, and is not evil in itself but an immature self-serving response. This is sadly misunderstood by most. Acknowledgement of sin often progresses to unhealthy shame which is not Biblical nor representative of the sayings and actions of Jesus.

In times past, humanity held an earlier acknowledgement that adulthood, say at 16, required maturity to act in ways that benefited the immediate family and community, while still having a recognition of some autonomy.

Now no one takes responsibility and it becomes delayed even approaching 30 and shrugging at our rambunctious actions. We didn't intend that our boisterous or exuberant youthful immaturity would harm others or ourselves...but they did.
People who are never aware of this dimension lose the possibility of resting in the present. As the letter to the Hebrews describes it, they never enter into the divine rest. They are held by the past and cannot separate themselves from it, or they escape towards the future, unable to rest in the present. They have not entered the eternal rest which stops the flux of time and gives us the blessing of the present. Perhaps this is the most conspicuous characteristic of our period, especially in the western world and particularly in this country. It lacks the courage to accept "presence" because it has lost the dimension of the eternal.

"I am the beginning and the end." This is said to us who live in the bondage of time, who have to face the end, who cannot escape the past, who need a present to stand upon. Each of the modes of time has its peculiar mystery, each of them carries its peculiar anxiety. Each of them drives us to an ultimate question. There is one answer to these questions -- the eternal. There is one power that surpasses the all-consuming power of time -- the eternal: He Who was and is and is to come, the beginning and the end. He gives us forgiveness for what has passed. He gives us courage for what is to come. He gives us rest in His eternal Presence.
Paul Tilich
 
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I... I don't think shame is a recent invention.
 
I... I don't think shame is a recent invention.

correct
If you look at the frequency diagram in the OP "shame" was used much more around 1600 (in English language books)
just like the words "honor" and "pride". (see new attached diagram)
Shame and pride being well correlated over the past 5 centuries.
And as Lexicus noted: very much present in classic greek culture (at least Aristoteles), where the city-state beneficial virtues were the highest good for a citizen
(Personal relations, except the perfect (not necessarily sexual) friendship between male friends, were utilitarian to the benefit of the city state. "A man should have sex with many women and man, just to make sure he did not get attached too much in an social-emotional way with someone special)

And that raises for me the question:
Would you rather have a friend, parents, primarily driven by pride and shame ? very robust in a state in turmoil, the citizens more a flock with heroes.
or driven by guilt and conscience ? more social fitting, the citizens in extended family social setting. No real heroes. Just boring "good" guys.

Schermopname (1216).png
 
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