Is Reloading a Save Cheating?

[Darkflight]

There is no such thing as cheating when playing single player, there are only things you want to let yourself do and things you don't want to let yourself do.

 

[cinattra]

Reloading is cheating if you are saving right before you do something and when it doesn't turn out like you wanted then you reload and try again until you get your desired outcome.

 

[Scarpa]

Yes, reloading is 'cheating' (I agree with the IDDQD guy, cheating is fine in solo play but still cheating).

However, in this particular game and others with a rich world I find it fascinating to reload, in a somewhat philosophical and metaphysical sense. Sometimes I do it for no reason in particular, simply because I know things *could have been different*. I have even run 'multiverse' games with a friend where we take the same save and diverge. We once did this where we chose the 'best' outcome each 100 turns on a marathon. Playing a game for 300 turns then decided theirs is better and starting in a completely new yet eerily familiar game was quite fun.

Like others have said it's entirely up to you and dependent on circumstance. If you get more enjoyment out of reloading and crafting the best possible outcome, good for you. If you feel guilty and robbed of achievement by doing it, well, don't do it!

 

[Sonereal]

There is no such thing as cheating when playing single player, there are only things you want to let yourself do and things you don't want to let yourself do.

Yes there is. If you use an infinite money cheat, you are cheating yourself a learning experience. If you savescum, you're cheating yourself from learning from your mistake and rolling with the punches.

Savescumming is literally Hitler.

Moderator Action: This user received an infraction. Gratuitous comparisons of game play decisions to Hitler is trolling.

 

[MantaRevan]

Yes there is. If you use an infinite money cheat, you are cheating yourself a learning experience. If you savescum, you're cheating yourself from learning from your mistake and rolling with the punches.

Savescumming is literally Hitler.

The opinion of anyone who compares reloading a save file in a single player computer game to Hitler should probably be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Quineloe]

If Hitler had had access to a reload button, things would have gone differently. We're 30 km from Moscow and the Winter stopped our forces? Reload May 1st, 1941 - leave Mussolini to his fate in Albania and start Barbarossa as planned.

Sonereal's post is just inaccurate

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I wouldn't do it myself, as a rule, but I wouldn't call it "cheating"-as long as its not a Multiplayer or Hall of Fame game. As everyone else has said...it's quite subjective!

Aussie.

 

[YourHarry]

Cheat: To act dishonestly or unfairly to gain an advantage.

Reloading in a single player game is not cheating. The act is neither dishonest or unfair, i.e. against the rules of the game. The game mechanics easily allows infinite number of saves and reloads. "Random seed" feature would be useless unless games are expected to be reloaded. If you disagree and feel that reloading in a single player game is a dishonest act, my guess is that it's most likely that you have been influenced by the culture of these forums (including Civ5 and other similar games).

On the other hand, submitting a game save for Game of the Month contest and hide the fact that you reloaded, then you are cheating. Such act would be dishonest, i.e. you are trying to deceive. Posting a game save on this forum, and lying about not reloading, is also dishonest. And I consider that cheating.

Games are meant to be enjoyed in different ways. Playing Civ5 scenarios, just because you didn't start at ancient era and standard speed is not cheating. Modding a game is not cheating - you simply want to change some aspects of the game. Playing single player Starcraft missions with "cheat" code "Power overwhelming" is not cheating. Developers intentionally created such codes to be used - probably because some people enjoy watching things get destroyed in mindless fashion. Whether you think these acts are honorable or stupid is subjective and is arguable. But based on the definition of cheating, none of these are dishonest or unfair.

 

[JurGor]

Of course reloading a save game is a cheat.

Part of playing any game is coping with the mistakes you make, and making the best of out the random (bad luck/good luck) situations.

Think of it this way: would you reload a game where you've had (insanely) GOOD luck? Of course not: that was all your mad skillz right?

A cheat is a cheat is a cheat. Call it Dumbo, paint it pink and glue a trunk on it, say it's supported by the devs, and it's still a cheat. Cheat! Cheat! Cheat!

That doesn't mean that cheating is wrong. Because cheating can be such ... FUN!

To me the most important ethic of playing a game is to have FUN. And for a solo game that means freaking anything goes, including cheating, as long as it delivers you FUN. So solo player, if cheating gives you more FUN, go ahead and have the Game God's blessing. No bad karma from having more FUN!

It's only when the multiplayer aspect sets in that you're going to want that level playingfield, so everyone can have FUN. That changes everything.

 

[Walter R]

I agree with majority, though I hardly ever get the option as I don't save every 10 turns as a rule. For me each game is a story; so although I'll never know what might have happened if I made different choices, I do know how I got to the present and can reflect on that whether I win or lose.
My main exception used to be re-rolling starts; but since the last few start locations have looked a bit yuk but I've gone on to win anyway, I rarely even do that now. But I still hate jungle starts!

 

[kkapalk]

I think Milith has it right. If it takes away any enjoyment from your game then don't reload. I sometimes reload when I make a bad military mistake. This can be called cheating but it doesn't take any pleasure away from my game so I happily reload.

 

[Shimmler]

It's not called "save scumming" for nothing

 

[YourHarry]

Of course reloading a save game is a cheat.

Part of playing any game is coping with the mistakes you make, and making the best of out the random (bad luck/good luck) situations.

Think of it this way: would you reload a game where you've had (insanely) GOOD luck? Of course not: that was all your mad skillz right?

Yes, I assume that most people's intentions with reloading are to get the better random events. So, yes. But I am not sure how this supports your argument.

A cheat is a cheat is a cheat. Call it Dumbo, paint it pink and glue a trunk on it, say it's supported by the devs, and it's still a cheat. Cheat! Cheat! Cheat!

That doesn't mean that cheating is wrong. Because cheating can be such ... FUN!

To me the most important ethic of playing a game is to have FUN. And for a solo game that means freaking anything goes, including cheating, as long as it delivers you FUN. So solo player, if cheating gives you more FUN, go ahead and have the Game God's blessing. No bad karma from having more FUN!

It's only when the multiplayer aspect sets in that you're going to want that level playingfield, so everyone can have FUN. That changes everything.

How would you define cheating?

Regardless, I guess most of us are in agreement in thinking that reloading is not wrong, whether or not it should be considered cheating. I think whether reloading is "cheating" per se is not the intended discussion of this thread (at least not the major one). Rather, the point was to poll whether it is ethically wrong to reload in single player games. And with this, I guess most of us agree that it's OK.

 

[krc]

Yes there is. If you use an infinite money cheat, you are cheating yourself a learning experience. If you savescum, you're cheating yourself from learning from your mistake and rolling with the punches.

Savescumming is literally Hitler.

Godwin's Law strikes again.

 

[Teproc]

People misunderstanding and abusing Godwin's Law strike again.

 

[Sonereal]

The opinion of anyone who compares reloading a save file in a single player computer game to Hitler should probably be taken with a grain of salt.

Several grains of salt preferably. Recession is tough.

If Hitler had had access to a reload button, things would have gone differently. We're 30 km from Moscow and the Winter stopped our forces? Reload May 1st, 1941 - leave Mussolini to his fate in Albania and start Barbarossa as planned.

Sonereal's post is just inaccurate

Not only would that be savescumming, but he would've still lost because the Russian UA in the scenario was General Winter: +50% Defense. He should've reloaded his 1939 save first and denounced Poland and hope that a denouncement chain starts.

If only he learned how to properly manage his DoFs and Research Agreements.

It's not called "save scumming" for nothing

It rolls off the tongue better than "person who reloads their saves in such a way to give themselves an unfair advantage on purpose."

Rather, the point was to poll whether it is ethically wrong to reload in single player games. And with this, I guess most of us agree that it's OK.

Really, the only acceptable mode is ironman.

 

[Adjuvant]

Wait, so after reloading 10 times to get at least a decent start and pouring 5-7 hours into a game it's more fun to just stop playing just because I made an easily fixable mistake?

I'd not have "reloaded 10 times for a decent start". In my opinion, if you find yourself doing this often, it means you need a lower difficulty level.

Yes, to me, losing to a mistake, regardless of time investiture, is a priority to "winning" and certainly a priority to "winning within parameters such as a turn limit".

Since you asked our opinions, I personally can't see how you could seriously validate even uttering " ( x ) civ win in ( x ) turns by ( x ) method " when you "fixed the game in 10 tries at the beginning". Further "reloading of past" because of "mistakes" reduces the validity of the win from the above "fixed" to "nothing" and even "garbage".

 

[DarthSheldonPhD]

Cheat: To act dishonestly or unfairly to gain an advantage.

If we are using this as the definition for cheating:

1.)reloading might be considered cheating because the AI does not have the same ability, hence it is unfair. However, you're not adding anything to your own value or subtracting anything from the AI's value, so if it is cheating, it's very negligible; more along the lines of correcting a mistake. Further, considering the notion that "correcting a mistake" = "cheating" very quickly allows you to use logic to reach very illogical conclusions, which implies it is flawed. Examples: If "correcting a mistake" = "cheating," then:
-erasers are inherently evil and anyone who uses pencils is untrustworthy.
-no one should cheat, therefore all keyboards must have their backspace and delete keys ripped out. Any hesitation in doing so is evidence that you are a cheater.

2.) What is considered cheating, at least a much more severe and advantageous application than reloading, is using armies consisting predominantly of ranged units, since the AI is very poorly designed to counter this. This clearly is "unfairly gaining an advantage" when you exploit a method allowing 1/2 dozen units to defeat dozens, even hundreds of units and several civilizations, not because of of skill or superior tactics, but exploiting a game-balance design flaw coupled with the AI's inability to adapt to a specific situation.

So, to all you who follow the philosophy of "live and let live," "it's a game and people can play however they like," and "reloading just allows you to correct mistakes," I agree and salute. To all the judgemental, holier-than-thou people pointing a finger and shouting, "cheater!," melee units only from here on out.

 

[Adjuvant]

If we are using this as the definition for cheating:

1.)reloading might be considered cheating because the AI does not have the same ability, hence it is unfair. However, you're not adding anything to your own value or subtracting anything from the AI's value, so if it is cheating, it's very negligible; more along the lines of correcting a mistake. Further, considering the notion that "correcting a mistake" = "cheating" very quickly allows you to use logic to reach very illogical conclusions, which implies it is flawed. Examples: If "correcting a mistake" = "cheating," then:
-erasers are inherently evil and anyone who uses pencils is untrustworthy.
-no one should cheat, therefore all keyboards must have their backspace and delete keys ripped out. Any hesitation in doing so is evidence that you are a cheater.

2.) What is considered cheating, at least a much more severe and advantageous application than reloading, is using armies consisting predominantly of ranged units, since the AI is very poorly designed to counter this. This clearly is "unfairly gaining an advantage" when you exploit a method allowing 1/2 dozen units to defeat dozens, even hundreds of units and several civilizations, not because of of skill or superior tactics, but exploiting a game-balance design flaw coupled with the AI's inability to adapt to a specific situation.

So, to all you who follow the philosophy of "live and let live," "it's a game and people can play however they like," and "reloading just allows you to correct mistakes," I agree and salute. To all the judgemental, holier-than-thou people pointing a finger and shouting, "cheater!," melee units only from here on out.

1. Your analogies aren't inline with the action/result aspect of turn-based structure.
a. Eraser erases... when? After the paper is graded? Then asked the professor's superior why the professor made such remarks?
b. Hyperbole

2. While true, doesn't discuss the "time travel as a cheat" aspect. However, while it's another issue altogether, it does illustrate the nature of the competition which, by-and-large vs AI, consists of more "man vs. himself" than "man vs. element" because most of AI's opportunity, by the very nature you described, amounts in a large fashion to the player's own mistakes.
a. You have exploited by changing the nature of the contest to one with significantly reduced likelihood of failure.
b. You have subtracted something from the AI's "value"; its capacity to make advantage of your error or short-sightedness.

I do agree with "live and let live" part, though. If I was standing behind you, watching, I wouldn't impugn you for it. At that same time, don't "turn around and say nothing's amiss".

 

[YourHarry]

If we are using this as the definition for cheating:

1.)reloading might be considered cheating because the AI does not have the same ability, hence it is unfair.

I was going to cover this in my original post, decided not to. When applying the definition "to gain an unfair advantage," AI is the object. In the game of Civ5, it happens to be personified so it's easy to make this confusion. Gaining a 15% combat promotion is not cheating against the barbs, because you are gaining an "unfair" advantage over them. Playing in a settler difficulty level is not cheating.