Is the Steam DRM just a one-time verification check? Or is it much more?

[ori]

Read it again. Ori didn't make it clear in what order he did things. He said things happened in the first minute of setting Steam into Offline mode but not whether they continued or what it was all about.

Steam has a setting in its settings screen which says "offline mode" - I checked that as per the description on the steam site.
I restarted the computer.
I started steam.
It attempted an internet connection.
Then it asked me if I wanted to go online.

Of course its asking you every time if you want to go online and even tells you that its set to offline mode while asking you. My gripe has has been said multiple times is that
- if you set it to stay offline
- it will tell you its offline
- but will still connect

There are a host of software that have automatic updating or other calling home functions - every single one of those which are installed on my machine when set to stay offline does so - Steam doesn't and there is no setting short of using third party software or disconnecting from the internet that prevents it from calling home. Worse they tell you it stays offline when it doesn't.

I don't believe it transmits and downloads anything bad - unless someone finds a way to misuse this feature - but I expect software to behave as it says it does. The screen you mention about it always asking says:

"Steam is currently set to offline mode. Many features such as friends and the Server Browser will not be available offline"
and then gives you two choices:
Go online / Start in Offline Mode

This screen even tells the user that the program is offline - even though it is only offline if it doesn't find an active internet connection.

Again to reiterate:
I have no problem with steam calling home. I have a problem with steam telling the user it won't and even offering a specific setting to make sure it stays offline - but then going ahead and calling home anyways. Its not a way to make users trust a company - if they have nothing to hide, why are they trying to do so?

(Disclaimer: I don't believe that Steam collects any data it doesn't disclose somewhere and I have no qualms using Steam - and if Civ5 happens to be a good game which we'll hopefully get to know in the near future I'll likely buy it - but I do feel that a company that misleads its consumers about its data collection does put itself into a very bad light regarding its trustworthiness)

 

[Kaelic]

Again to reiterate:
I have no problem with steam calling home. I have a problem with steam telling the user it won't and even offering a specific setting to make sure it stays offline - but then going ahead and calling home anyways.

Why do you have a problem with this? How do you even know its attempt to connect is "calling home" in any way other than establishing a socket to test if the steam server even is running? You have no idea what it's doing, yet you imply it's "calling home" in some negative way.

I have a problem with steam telling the user it won't

Where does it say offline mode equates to "won't even test the existence of the steam server if a connection is detected on the machine"? Make up your mind on what you think offline mode is, determine what Steam SAYS it is, then make a more informed opinion of it.

Its not a way to make users trust a company - if they have nothing to hide, why are they trying to do so?

You're the one that is attributing this behavior to something suspicious, rather than convenience for the user or the steam client. You have no idea what it's doing but you think it's suspicious, even though you think valve aren't untrustworthy. What precisely are you even getting at with this circular reasoning?

 

[ori]

Actually I am very very very well informed about what the Take2 rep here said about it and what the official description Steam has on their site says. Both are not really compatible with the real behavior of the program.

As for how I know: I tested it using among others the freely available windows network manager: it uploads and downloads multiple packages from multiple steam servers or servers related to steam. Those packages include a header which, while encoded, is always the same one so likely an ID for the program I use and about 30 or so bytes per package which vary over each of the packages.

Please don't go around accusing people of not knowing what they are saying - I am very careful with my descriptions and test them multiple times before I make such assertions. I do know how internet traffic works, I do know how online programs work and I do know how to monitor what packages are leaving my computer, from what program they originate, how large thy are, what information is repeated and what packages are received by which program.

Also: please read my post: I clearly state what I think: The software offers an offline mode. The company says it won't connect to the servers in offline mode. The user is told that it is in offline mode. The program still connects to the servers and exchanges data. This is highly unusual behavior for any program with online content, it does not square with the description the company offers or with what the program tells the user it does. This is suspicious behavior, period. I don't have any evidence that anything bad is being done - but that still doesn't mean that it is ok for the company to mislead the customer.

Welcome to CFC by the way and glad my post got you to register

 

[Akka]

The stupidity of people who can't even grasp the problem about a program being in "offline mode" and still connection, is truly astounding.

Corporations can be happy, the sheepinesh of the public is well on its way.

Moderator Action: Please do not refer to people as stupid, this is a warning for trolling

 

[Senethro]

Is the traffic small? Yes. A single figure of kilobytes.
Is it going to reasonable places? Yes. Apparently to your local content server.
Is it required? No, you can remove it from firewall exceptions if you wish with no ill effect.
Is it continuous? Once per Steam opening? Per hour? I don't think we've been told.
Is it likely just checking Steam servers still exist/version so it knows what to do if the customer suddenly wants to go Online? Probably.

Is it steeling ur dox? Oh, most avowedly so.

 

[Chalks]

The software offers an offline mode. The company says it won't connect to the servers in offline mode. The user is told that it is in offline mode.

[Citation needed]

Offline mode allows you to play your games without an internet connection. That's what the company says offline mode is, that's what users are told the software is doing.

It is a mode for when you are offline.

If you're not offline and you're trying to use offline mode for some reason, then I would like to know where it says what it will do.

Unfortunately they probably haven't designed their software for people who are both illogically paranoid and incapable of configuring a firewall. Sending a few packets out then doing a "am I in offline mode?" check when the packets fail to return seems pretty reasonable, considering what this functionality is actually designed to be used for.

When designing a software specification document, you can go through "what if's" all day, but you're still probably going to miss the "but what if they decide that the world is being run by evil mega corporations who want to steal the contents of their MSWord documents to harvest harry potter fanfics so they want a pretend-I-am-offline-so-that-they-don't-come-into-my-computers-to steal-my-wizards mode".

 

[The_Coyote]

[Citation needed]

Offline mode allows you to play your games without an internet connection. That's what the company says offline mode is, that's what users are told the software is doing.

...

3. How often do I have to connect with Steam after the activation? Never again, if you choose to play in offline mode. The Steam client will still start, but will not communicate with the servers. ...

Unfortunately they probably haven't designed their software for people who are both illogically paranoid and incapable of configuring a firewall.

Thanks for showing an insulting attitude again. Paranoid is such a nice word - of course it does not include that if someone does not share your opinion about certain facts is in your eyes "brainsick". And it also not shows your general lack of respect towards persons with a different opinion in this discussion.

 

[Chalks]

Thanks for showing an insulting attitude again. Paranoid is such a nice word - of course it does not include that if someone does not share your opinion about certain facts is in your eyes "brainsick". And it also not shows your general lack of respect towards persons with a different opinion in this discussion.

It's an extremely accurate word for what you are expressing.

2K E says you don't have to connect to Steam after the initial activation in order to play the game.

This is absolutely 100% correct.

The fact that there is no logical reason to avoid doing this when you have an active internet connection and a legal copy of the game besides irrational paranoia means that Valve probably didn't develop the software with this in mind.

You can still unplug your internet connection. You can still block the app with your firewall. The game will still work.

It's not exactly a shocker. It's an online games platform with the capacity to cope with a lack of internet access.

 

[Commander Bello]

It's an extremely accurate word for what you are expressing.

2K E says you don't have to connect to Steam after the initial activation in order to play the game.

This is absolutely 100% correct.

Unfortunately, as almost any time, you are not correct in your citations.

Here is, what 2KElizabeth has said:

I just triple confirmed this with the devs and Valve. Yes, that will work. If you want multiplayer, to earn achievements, or to get the game updates and content you'll need to go back out there and hook up again, but you will definitely be able to play offline without a connection. Steam will start, but the internet connection won't.

I really would like to ask you to be a bit more accurate, since your mistakes might mislead readers who could be relying on you.

The fact that there is no logical reason to avoid doing this when you have an active internet connection and a legal copy of the game besides irrational paranoia means that Valve probably didn't develop the software with this in mind.

The fact is that a software should work as intended and announced.
Since we have the word of Elizabeth that both the developers and the Valve staff are sure that there isn't any internet connection when running Steam in offline mode, anybody - especially people who seem to be pleased by Steam - should be happy that such flaws are detected so that they may be ironed out of the program.

Since such a desire seems to be very obvious, I am honestly surprised that you seem to be fine with that error.

 

[The_Coyote]

ok i will highlight the sentence in question

Never again, if you choose to play in offline mode. The Steam client will still start, but will not communicate with the servers.

The observed behavior differs from the above posted statement. And thats the reason for the actual discussion, nothing more. No conspiracy theory or something similar. There is no real - what to hell steams transfers - guessing, because nobody knows. The only facts that are known are that the pakets are quite small and have a unique header.

There was no discussion if i can avoid the behaviour (i can, but this not the topic) or if this behaviour can be see as normal for an online tool (i don´t share you sight, but i can accept, that you can have a different opinion in this, but again this is not the topic). So there is absolut no need to use illogicial (you know all facts, your are able to be absolutely logic.) or paranoid (with the implied side meaning) in this discussion.

The fact that there is no logical reason to avoid doing this when you have an active internet connection and a legal copy of the game besides irrational paranoia means that Valve probably didn't develop the software with this in mind.

They exists, even if you don´t see them. And most shocking, not all of this reason have Valve or Steam in mind (perhaps you would say: Don´t be paranoid. Not very point here is made to blame Valve ).

 

[Chalks]

I really would like to ask you to be a bit more accurate, since your mistakes might mislead readers who could be relying on you.

The fact is that a software should work as intended and announced.
Since we have the word of Elizabeth that both the developers and the Valve staff are sure that there isn't any internet connection when running Steam in offline mode, anybody - especially people who seem to be pleased by Steam - should be happy that such flaws are detected so that they may be ironed out of the program.

Since such a desire seems to be very obvious, I am honestly surprised that you seem to be fine with that error.

No, read it again, in context rather than just picking on random parts to highlight:

I just triple confirmed this with the devs and Valve. Yes, that will work. If you want multiplayer, to earn achievements, or to get the game updates and content you'll need to go back out there and hook up again, but you will definitely be able to play offline without a connection. Steam will start, but the internet connection won't.

If you do not have an internet connection steam will start without one. "you will be able to play offline without a connection", in direct response to someone claiming that you need to have an internet connection in order to use offline mode (what?).

If you do not have an internet connection, you can use offline mode to play the game without connecting to the steam servers.

It's not complicated - offline mode is designed for use if you are offline. If you are in offline mode, steam will be unable to connect to the servers.

Steam has an in built web browser which connects to the steam store when the client is loaded by default. There are all sorts of things that it will try to poll for an internet connection for.

That is not why offline mode exists. Yes, you are trying to use offline mode for some sort of tin foil hat "oh noes they are in my computers watching my civ strategies!!" thing, but it's designed to allow you to play games if you have no internet connection. That's what it does. That's what it is.

So congratulations on being able to confuse a sensible person by asking a question, expecting them to address it from the point of view of an irrationally paranoid person rather than just the point of view of someone with no internet access.

I would pat you on the back but I am afraid you may misinterpret it as me trying to steal your organs.

 

[The_J]

Is the traffic small? Yes. A single figure of kilobytes.
Is it going to reasonable places? Yes. Apparently to your local content server.
Is it required? No, you can remove it from firewall exceptions if you wish with no ill effect.
Is it continuous? Once per Steam opening? Per hour? I don't think we've been told.
Is it likely just checking Steam servers still exist/version so it knows what to do if the customer suddenly wants to go Online? Probably.

Does it do what i told it to do? No.
Does it lie? Yes.

It's not exactly a shocker.

The company is lying.
It's a shocker.

 

[The_Coyote]

No, read it again, in context rather than just picking on random parts to highlight:

than read the sentence from 2 K Elizabeth and say what we misread there

That is not why offline mode exists. Yes, you are trying to use offline mode for some sort of tin foil hat "oh noes they are in my computers watching my civ strategies!!" thing, but it's designed to allow you to play games if you have no internet connection. That's what it does. That's what it is.

oh, your second mosts popular blame already ("tin foil" - yes of course, again no side meaning and no sign of lacking respect). The topic was, observed behaviour and said behaviour. Not the speculation what kind of data is transfered - but it seems you are unable to see the difference, and always mix them.

 

[PieceOfMind]

there is no logical reason to avoid doing this when you have an active internet connection and a legal copy of the game besides irrational paranoia

Amazing.
Once you get over the use of labeling everything as irrational paranoia a good argument might result. That seriously is about all your argument is anymore. Irrational paranoia this, irrational paranoia that.
Even when ori makes completely reasoned posts about the correctness of statements being made by 2K or Valve, all you and some others can do is suggest that the reason he's even wondering this is out of some sort of paranoia.
For heaven's sake, people have worries and concerns about all sorts of things. Many people are apprehensive about getting in a car with a driver who's been drinking, for example. Statistics will tell you you've still got a very very low chance of being in bad car accident. Do you go around telling people in instances like this they are being paranoid because they are not comfortable with some information they have?

 

[eireksten]

Oh, come on guys. You understand what Elizabeth meant. You don't have to be online to play Civ5, except for at activation. That's what all the questions was about. And that's true. If you are offline, and the Steam client was up to date when you set it to offline mode, you will still be able to play your game.

Why do everyone have to take all sentences entirely literally on internet forums?

About Steam connecting even when set to offline mode, I suggest contacting Valve about it. It probably has a reasonable explanation. If it's not how it is supposed to work, Valve will probably get right into fixing it. They are continually working on their client.

That's a lot better than sitting back and complaining about it on a totally fansite forum, at least.

 

[Senethro]

Does it lie? Yes.

Are you sure? Can you lie on someone elses behalf?

Because it looks to me like people are taking the contradiction between a statement made by 2K elizabeth (hint: The clue is in the name. Not a valve employee. Also, PR/marketing, not even a technical employee.) and that Steam does 1kb of traffic around startup to mean lies, evil and deception are taking place.

 

[PieceOfMind]

It's not complicated - offline mode is designed for use if you are offline. If you are in offline mode have no internet connection, steam will be unable to connect to the servers.

Fixed for you.

I thought it was established quite clearly that Steam is able to contact a server or servers while in offline mode. It doesn't need to, but it can.


I agree with the rest of your post, except for once again the use of "irrational paranoia!" that appears.

 

[Commander Bello]

If you do not have an internet connection steam will start without one. "you will be able to play offline without a connection", in direct response to someone claiming that you need to have an internet connection in order to use offline mode (what?).

I am strongly convinced that 2K's Elizabeth is a reasonable person.

Therefore, if no internet connection (by technical means) exists, Steam won't create one out of the hat.
This is so obvious that no "triple confirmation" with neither the developers nor the Valve personell would have been needed.

If you do not have an internet connection, you can use offline mode to play the game without connecting to the steam servers.

This wasn't the question.

It's not complicated - offline mode is designed for use if you are offline. If you are in offline mode, steam will be unable to connect to the servers.

Obviously, as shown by Ori, it actually will connect to the servers.

Steam has an in built web browser which connects to the steam store when the client is loaded by default. There are all sorts of things that it will try to poll for an internet connection for.

Which, in offline mode, is an unwanted "feature".
Either, there is no technical connection to the internet, then it doesn't make any sense to run such attempts, or the user doesn't want for that moment Steam to connect.

In any case, the behaviour of the Steam software is against the expressed will of the user and, furthermore, completely unnecessary.

That is not why offline mode exists. Yes, you are trying to use offline mode for some sort of tin foil hat "oh noes they are in my computers watching my civ strategies!!" thing, but it's designed to allow you to play games if you have no internet connection. That's what it does. That's what it is.

If I get you correctly, you are saying that it is intended behaviour for Steam to communicate with Steam servers when explicitely having been put into offline mode?

 

[Chalks]

Even when ori makes completely reasoned posts about the correctness of statements being made by 2K or Valve, all you and some others can do is suggest that the reason he's even wondering this is out of some sort of paranoia.

It's tedious nit picking.

To think that a company (selected at random, based on no previous history or evidence what so ever) is going to do something illegal if you give it access to your system is paranoid.

That's all it is. Baseless paranoia.

Sure, you can have a problem with me saying that. You see that thing people dig up their gardens with? It's called a spade.

 

[The_J]

Amazing.
Once you get over the use of labeling everything as irrational paranoia a good argument might result. That seriously is about all your argument is anymore. Irrational paranoia this, irrational paranoia that.

You don't want a camera in your bathroom?
Come on, they will not abuse it, it's irrational paranoia.

+1 on the hyperbole scale .

Oh, come on guys. You understand what Elizabeth meant. You don't have to be online to play Civ5, except for at activation. That's what all the questions was about. And that's true. If you are offline, and the Steam client was up to date when you set it to offline mode, you will still be able to play your game.

Why do everyone have to take all sentences entirely literally on internet forums?

Are you sure? Can you lie on someone elses behalf?

Because it looks to me like people are taking the contradiction between a statement made by 2K elizabeth (hint: The clue is in the name. Not a valve employee. Also, PR/marketing, not even a technical employee.) and that Steam does 1kb of traffic around startup to mean lies, evil and deception are taking place.

We are talking more about what the steam client pretends to do or not to do.

I'm completly fine with what Elizabeth says, she probably doesn't know more about it like we do.
But not, that offline doesn't mean offline here.