Is there a Reason to be anything but Elves?

[Bill Bisco]

I'm just curious. If you're planning on choosing a Civilization and sticking with it (not ditching it to go Hyborem or Basium), why would you choose anything but Ljósálfar?

I mean, they can build cottages and farms in forests without cutting them down. Their Worldspell is almost as good as the Elohim's and can be used offensively and potentially deadly in the early game. Fellowship of Leaves makes their forests, ancient forests, and gives them more food meaning that the city can grow bigger. Guardian of Nature civic gives every city huge bonuses to happiness and health meaning that you don't need to build happiness or health buildings hardly anymore. And since you're using guardian of nature, you can easily choose City States for very low maintenance without having to sacrifice Aristocracy since many of your forests have cottages in them.

So, if your goal is to win the game, is there a reason to be anything but Ljósálfar?

 

[scutarii]

challenge.

Flexibility.

Strategy.

Dirty tricks.

Different winning goals.

as you see, plenty of reasons.

 

[WarKirby]

Calabim, Flauros

Enjoy massive cities right from the off, and an army of lv20 monsters, while most other civs have only one hero of that calibre.

Also, they can make a city built in flat grasslands, into a production powerhouse. thanks to governor's manors.

 

[WarKirby]

Also, the elves have lazy workers, plus harder build orders for them to do.And no river commerce.

 

[JonathanStrange]

I play the Ljosalfars 80% of the time, but I don't think they're particularly strong or powerful. Perhaps it's the way I play 'em? Maybe, but I've studied the Ljosalfar strengths, I've read the forum tips/advice on strategy and tactics, basically done the homework and still find my Deity level games a struggle for survival.

That may be because of the Deity level, the Pangaea maps, and Raging Barbarians combined with my incompetence as a leader but still I think the Ljosalfar's are over-rated. Maybe they kick ass on other maps or other difficulty levels, maybe the AI is really good with 'em: I'm not sure. The Ljosalfars have a rep they haven't earned, imo.

Treants are slow and unreliable. An early World Spell brings forth a handful of Treants, a late World Spell destroys your economy, and the slowpokes are everywhere but where you need them. The Elven workers are slow, there are no Elven siegecraft or firearms, the signature Elven trooper is the defensive Archer (who doesn't get Woodsman promotions) and their Hero is an archer powerful mostly in the early game.

The Elves have to work to get Ancient Forests going; they just don't start out with 'em and Elf workers are slow builders. If the Ljos beeline for FoL, have to rely on hunters and fauns early, neither of which are impressive fighters. Fauns, for example, are something like 50% more expensive than warriors but the same in strength - plus they've no city defense bonus or pillage-ability so they neither defend cities well, nor loot enemy improvements. You've got to hope someone will attack them in the forest.

I play the Ljosalfars mostly, but not because all I'm thinking about is winning. I find them challenging and fun to command. I'm relatively new to fantasy-themed gaming involving magic or Elves or demons so to me, the Ljosalfars are interesting but not because of their power. Lots of games, I find myself without much attacking troops because units like swordsmen and champions are in an expensive off-the-Ljosalfar-research-path so the Ljos have easy access to defenders and a few specialist attackers, but they rarely have early offensive units.

However, I will concede that if you don't knock out the Ljosalfars early and easily, then you really have to gear up to wipe them out. Their cities can become enormous, one can adopt the Guardian of Nature civic and just go nuts. Once the forests have been bloomed and start becoming Ancient Forests, enemy civs are in for a rage of Elves. That's why I find them fun to command, I love the come-from-the-brink of defeat aspect. So I'm not saying they're hopeless - I wouldn't have bothered discussing them for months if I thought that - I'd just say they have their moments which come after lots of defense.

 

[JonathanStrange]

Also, the elves have lazy workers, plus harder build orders for them to do.And no river commerce.

No river commerce, true. Lazy, perhaps.

 

[readercolin]

Try the dwarves. Get a few hills, run an agristocracy (with kandros fir) and arete, manage your vaults well, and laugh at everyone while you roll over them with a champion for their every axmen. +90% production, if you manage your cities right, is FAR more powerful than the elven ancient forest/cottage economy.

Then try the calibam. Sit in the middle of the grassland, spam farms everywhere, and run agristocracy. Get your governors manor, city size of 30-40, and roll over all your opponents with your combat 5, drill 4, movement 1, blitz vampires (skip a few steps if needed... but... your choice).

Then try the lurchip - use the worldspell, move all the hammers to your capital, and spam great engineers and watch people fall under your endless waves of fireball spewing golems, all built with the combat 5 bonus (i forgot what its called - just get barnaxus to lvl 5 and then hide him somewhere and all your golems start off with +50% strength). Oh, and make sure you accompany your army with a bunch of adepts/mages to instantaneously repair all your damaged troops and then keep rolling.

Then try the lanuan and settle on the coast. Don't forget your pirate ports. And your early research advantage will crush your opponents quickly, and grabbing warfare to use conquest and set all that food to building your troops. Then grab OO and spam stygan guard and priests - any costal city is dead in a single turn. Inner continent cities are solved by maelstrom spewing mages and proper use of lots of stygan guards.

Then try the clan. Grab masonry early, build warrens, then spam 2 units for the price of 1. If anyone lasts long under your endless waves of troops, well, send more bigger waves. Using warrens to build 2 settlers for the price of 1, 2 workers for the price of one, you can easily get a massive lead in cities, followed shortly by a massive lead in troops. Then you can just extort a tech lead out of your opponents - your techs, or your dead bodies. Remember - your champion replacements are strength 8... the only downside is you can't upgrade your axmen to them.

Personally, I find elves to be a bit gimpy and overrated. Yeah, you have the whole every square with an ancient forest and a cottage, every city will have decent production. But, using proper city placement, any other civ can match or surpass the elves imo.

Every civ has some advantage or another. Find out what they are and work to exploit them.

-Colin

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Also, the elves have lazy workers, plus harder build orders for them to do.

That. That right there is the big weakness of the elves.

It takes over twice as long for an elven worker to build something in a regular forest than it does for a human worker to build a normal improvement. Make it an ancient forest and it becomes about 3 times as long. So... in the early game, they're going to need twice as many workers as a normal civ in order to get their advantage of an extra hammer per improvement while keeping a halfway decent workrate. And workers are expensive early on. This... hamstrings their early development a lot.

Eventually it all pays off when they get huge happiness and healthiness bonuses and a food on top of each bonus hammer. But they'll have expanded slower, lost races to good wonders, and sometimes gotten outright killed by an early rush because they either spent so many of their first hammers and food on workers, or dragged ass building those great improvements.

Other weaknesses mentioned in this thread (no siege, forests choke river commerce) are annoying but but not much more. The worker thing is the biggest problem.

 

[JonathanStrange]

Slow workers, well they don't help, but I try to look on the bright side: that's that many fewer improvements for the barbarians to pillage. Hmm...the dark side is that it takes so long to rebuild. Ehh, an Elf's life isn't all treehugging and whistling.

 

[Bill Bisco]

So the disadvantage of the elves is the -20% work rate and the inability to build catapaults?

I can see the latter as debilitating. So my question is, is there a reasonable way to make up for the lack of catapaults so that Elves still stay on top as far as winnability is concerned or is the lack of Catapaults a game breaker.

I see the -20% work rate as annoying, but since my cities get so big with so much production and commerce, building a few extra workers doesn't seem that big of a deal to me, personally.

 

[Broken Hawk]

How about a Bannor Crusade? They just keep coming and coming.

 

[readercolin]

lack of catapults can be solved by mages (or disciple units... but I'm assuming that you're using FoL, which doesn't have any means of helping here). For reducing city defenses, there are 2 spells you can use - fire 2 (fireball), and shadow 2 (ignore terrain defence). For collateral damage, there are again two spells you can use - fire 2 again, and air 2. Then you can use the myriad other spells to either enhance your units, send fodder into the breach, or hinder your opponents. But those 3 spells are the primary ones that are catapult replacement.

And as for the bannor crusade... i have never really been able to get that to work well for me. But then I tend to run more specialist economies than cottage economies...

-Colin

 

[JonathanStrange]

Yeah, Fire mana for Fireballs is helpful and it's the common Elf replacement for not having siegecraft. I use it even though as it's paradoxical, strange even, for a Forest Guardian to be playing with fire.

I prefer Maelstrom (Level II Air Spell) for my city bombardment weapon. The reason is Ljosalfars start with Air mana from their Palace, so they're leveraging their strengths when they build an Air mana node, giving them immediate access to Maelstrom. No fuss, no muss. Maelstrom's collateral damage potential can make calling the lightnings tricky but it's worth it.

BTW:

I think the biggest Elf drawback is that they're primarily defensive in a game where being on the attack is a big plus. The thematic Ljosalfar military unit is the Archer and while Ljo archers are powerful & cheap defenders they're poor attackers - even with +1 Attack from the Ljo Dexterous trait - and especially weak city attackers. The Metal line research path to champions is a common route to city attackers but for the Elves, it's not only expensive but off their early research paths.

I don't think any of that's devastating but Ljosalfars in general are on the defensive longer than most other civs. They have access to some heavy-hitters but not early or easily. The AI handles the Ljosalfars well enough to be relatively successful, many people have seen powerful Ljosalfar but I think the AI's success with the Ljos has more to do with the AI getting starting bonuses that help the Elves leave their more vulnerable stage faster than a human player would be able to do same.

 

[Sarisin]

So the disadvantage of the elves is the -20% work rate and the inability to build catapaults?

I can see the latter as debilitating. So my question is, is there a reasonable way to make up for the lack of catapaults so that Elves still stay on top as far as winnability is concerned or is the lack of Catapaults a game breaker.

Beeline Cartography/Pact of Nihorn and use the Three Stooges.

Not only do they have the ability to bombard (like a catapult - without the siege promotions, though) but you can level them up to very powerful early units with their Hidden Nationality. Become a master of dirty tricks as you slip them into nearby civs' borders to kill and pillage without declaring war.

They are good to take in an Elven stack for their bombard and wont get easily picked off by Assassins.

They are an investment to get, but the good news is the AI doesn't often go for them and you should be able to get the Pact. I like to get them with other civs, but when playing the elves, they are a must for me.

 

[Itherael]

Elf noob here. (I'm all dwarf)

I recall playing as both of the elven races as I have played all the races at one time or another but can some elf pro outline the major pros and cons between the two elven nations please.

 

[popejubal]

The Elves have the best stuff in the game - in their realm of power (improving land). If you want real fun, though, start a game with Ljosalfar and Svartalfar as neighbors, let them found Fellowship of Leaves and turn everything in their territory into super-forests with mines/cottages/whatever and then take their land from them once they've improved it for you.

That way, you get the *alfar benefits while still getting to play someone else as well. I've just gotten off a couple of games as Calabim and they're quite frankly amazing. As soon as you get Fanaticism or Feudalism, you get Vampires and about a dozen turns after you get Vampires, you can go get yourself Brigit with a level 15 unit that you can then use to go stomp on your neighbors.

Calabim are simply amazing once you get the Vampires.

I used to think that Lanun were kind of meh, but then I had to play them in the Scenarios and I found that Pirate Coves are a lot more impressive than I had originally thought. Falamar is a great leader even though he doesn't have anything that jumps off the page to impress people. Just make sure you found Octopus Overlords for the Priests and don't forget to build the Heron Throne.

Sidar are easy to lose with because they make you want to settle all of your high level units, but their research and production capabilities are really impressive. Just don't wane every unit that can do so or you'll run out of units for your military.

 

[JFSebastian]

So the disadvantage of the elves is the -20% work rate and the inability to build catapaults?

This isn't quite complete. Its the catapults and the -20% work rate compounded with the increased time it takes to build in forest or ancient forest. It takes a Ljosalfar worker 5 turns to build a cottage in the open, but 12 turns to build it in an ancient forest. When you consider Guardian of Nature, that actually further compounds the worker shortage because you have that many more workable tiles to improve during rapid growth. Of course, unimproved ancient forest isn't anything to sneeze at and city growth won't be a problem because of it, but to get the full potential out of your land, you need quite a large army of workers to keep up.

 

[Micky Onimusha]

I gotta say, I've never had it easy with the Ljo. They go against my usual starting instincts. In fact, I'd love to hear what people's starting priorities are as them, since I fancy giving Amelanchier a go (Rhoanna's given me a love for Flanking Horses and Amelanchier sort of recreates that with Defender withdrawal+Forest movement). How do people tech up their start as the Elves? Since they go against my usual REX and RoK start or Rush and RoK start ... either way I usually end up heading up the Mining/Bronze path and obsessing over gold with RoK and that's pretty much the opposite of what Elves (seem to) do.

I don't know how bothered I'd be by a lack of Catapults. I never build the damn things anyway. I always turn to magic to make up the difference. Catapults just move too slow for my impatient tastes. Slow workers would bother me a little but I think like BB said, super-productive cities can probably fart workers without a sweat.

 

[JFSebastian]

I gotta say, I've never had it easy with the Ljo. They go against my usual starting instincts. In fact, I'd love to hear what people's starting priorities are as them, since I fancy giving Amelanchier a go (Rhoanna's given me a love for Flanking Horses and Amelanchier sort of recreates that with Defender withdrawal+Forest movement). How do people tech up their start as the Elves? Since they go against my usual REX and RoK start or Rush and RoK start ... either way I usually end up heading up the Mining/Bronze path and obsessing over gold with RoK and that's pretty much the opposite of what Elves (seem to) do.

I don't know how bothered I'd be by a lack of Catapults. I never build the damn things anyway. I always turn to magic to make up the difference. Catapults just move too slow for my impatient tastes. Slow workers would bother me a little but I think like BB said, super-productive cities can probably fart workers without a sweat.

REX and RoK would probably work pretty well with both elves. You'd have some ridiculously productive forest/mines using Arete. Thessa would be a fast REXer. In theory you could have both Ancient Forests and Arete mines if you started with FoL and then switched. Would also get you some Priests of Leaves so you could stick forests on your bonus tiles.

 

[Micky Onimusha]

REX and RoK would probably work pretty well with both elves. You'd have some ridiculously productive forest/mines using Arete. Thessa would be a fast REXer. In theory you could have both Ancient Forests and Arete mines if you started with FoL and then switched. Would also get you some Priests of Leaves so you could stick forests on your bonus tiles.

Was gonna say, the real problem with running RoK is that you lose AFs in most cases. What's the odds of being able to grab both religions as well?

As super productive as Forest-Mines would be, I still don't know if I'd want to take it over the +1/+1 from GoN AFs. Productivity is nice but the impression I always got was that Elf power just came from the ridiculous supercity possibilities.

Of course, in my typical flakey way, I'm actually kind of being tempted to the dark side of the Sva Still, I imagine both would have similar starting strategies. 'cept I'm kind of tempted to settle near Cows/Sheep/Pigs as the Sva just as an excuse to grab AH, since the super Scouts could actually make the Grand Menagerie a possibility (I know the only time I managed it before was as the Sva). Then again, FoL looks better for them than CoE so I'd probably have GoN anyway and have no happy issues...