Is there still racism in Europe?

[G-Man]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
No, it's not.

Then how do you explain the fact that the UN considers religious discrimination as racism?

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Benderino
Yes, prejudism. You can be prejudist against Christians (which is still just as bad as racism) however, I think when talkinga bout the Jews, it is racism. The Jewish people are a race.

There's no scientific definition of a race among humans, so I don't know if the jewish people are such. But in any case there's no comparison, as you're talking about the jewish people compared to the christian religion

 

[polymath]

I visit Germany 4 or 5 times a year, and have never witnessed any racism, not among my friends there, nor colleagues, nor the general population.

I see those old guys in Lederhosen there of course, and once I saw a guy with a Hitler outfit and 'tache, but I have never heard anyone express any sentiments like that.

More often, I see intense embarrassment at the mere idea of that stuff.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Stapel
No! I strongly disagree! People choose to be religious. People cannot choose their race. Therefor prejudism against christians is not even half as bad as prejudism against people of a certain race.

I don't see how it makes it any better. Someone who chooses to be christian isn't necesasrily bad, just like people in a certain color are not necesasrily bad.

 

[Stapel]

Originally posted by G-Man


Then how do you explain the fact that the UN considers religious discrimination as racism?

That can perfectly well be explained by the fact that the UN makes not as much sense as people think....

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Stapel
That can perfectly well be explained by the fact that the UN makes not as much sense as people think....

True... But a quick check will show you that nearly every goverment has anti racism committees and bodies, and that their mendate includes anti religious discrimination.

 

[Cimbri]

Originally posted by polymath
I visit Germany 4 or 5 times a year, and have never witnessed any racism, not among my friends there, nor colleagues, nor the general population.

I see those old guys in Lederhosen there of course, and once I saw a guy with a Hitler outfit and 'tache, but I have never heard anyone express any sentiments like that.

More often, I see intense embarrassment at the mere idea of that stuff.

The ‘real’ common (and widespread) racism in Europe is not on public display.
It is generally something you keep at home and try not to talk about. Hence therefore Nazi symbols are just the banner for the extreme radicals who likes to be seen and heard.

 

[Stapel]

G-Man: As said before, christians, or religious people in general, come in various flavours. Some act truely wrong, on behalf of their beliefs. No-one acts truely wrong on behalf of their race.

IMO a big difference!

Artice 1 of the Dutch constitution sais discrimination is prohibited on anything. I disagree with that.
Discrimination on religion should be possible from a certain point. I someone believes, in a religious way, he can deny certain rights to others (women, gays, blacks, whatever), I think this should not be accepted.

Freedom of religion is fine, until people start using their religion to defend discrimination.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by G-Man
Then how do you explain the fact that the UN considers religious discrimination as racism?

They don't! And that quote you posted, does nothing to back up this claim!

You're wrong, Christians are not a race. It's that simple.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by G-Man
I don't see how it makes it any better. Someone who chooses to be christian isn't necesasrily bad, just like people in a certain color are not necesasrily bad.

I agree with Stapel, it's not as bad.

 

[Yoshimune]

Originally posted by G-Man

But why isn't it racist?

Because many races are Christian. Most of Korea is Christian, and most of <insert Western country here> is Christian. It's not racism, it's bigotry.

EDIT: oops, i forgot that i didn't read all the posts before posting. Well, bigotry is still a better word for it.

 

[bigfatron]

Originally posted by G-Man
I don't see how it makes it any better. Someone who chooses to be christian isn't necesasrily bad, just like people in a certain color are not necesasrily bad.

I couldn't agree more.

Any stereotyping of people is a source of evil - I am constantly baffled why people think it is OK to be nationalistic ("My country is best and I will fight and kill people as my national leader commands"), find religious bigotry tolerable ("My religion is best and I will fight and kill people as my religious leader commands") but view racism is utterly evil ("My race is best and I will fight and kill people as my racial leader commands")

These are ALL ways in which we connive with the powerful to bucket other people into groups which can be labelled, abused, mistreated and ignored.

For god's sake THINK FOR YOURSELVES - every individual's life carries the same potential and has the same value - Jew or Christian, Hindu or Moslem, American or Iraqi, communist or libertarian, black or white - these are all labels used to segregate and denigrate

Anyone who tells you different is a lying SoB who wants you to stop thinking for yourself and do as you are told....

 

[Gothmog]

It is a fact that there is no scientific definition of the word 'race'. It is not a genetic term; it is purely a social one.

As bigfatron says, it is a term meant to segregate. Typically for the purpose of elevation or abuse.

I agree with G-man, current usage of the word racism includes religious discrimination; this is a natural extension due to the essentially social meaning of the word.

But really this is a semantic question, and not worth getting upset about. Bigotry is certainly a more specific word, but usually means an obstinate attachment to a particular religion - not a prejudice against.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Gothmog
I agree with G-man, current usage of the word racism includes religious discrimination; this is a natural extension due to the essentially social meaning of the word.

It's not used in such a way.

Race does not cover religion. If I were to become a Christian tomorrow, my race would not change.

Race is not a word to cover religion or discrimination, racism does not cover religion of any kind. You might as well label people who discriminate based on the Christian religion sexist. It is no more correct.

 

[phoenix_night]

And to people who say discrimination by religion is just as bad as discrimination by race: it's not.

Religion is a choice, an opinion and a chosen way of life. People will disagree with the opinions of others, they always will. People will dislike religion and disagree with the concept and dislike people because of it. That is not to say discrimination is okay though.

But it is nothing like as bad to discriminate against people because of their own choice and opinions, and because of their lifestyle as it to discriminate against people because of their race, their skin colour for example. Somethig which has absolutely no impact on their life and personality and something which, all importantly, isn't even chosen by the people in question. Something they have no say in.

Racism is far worse.

 

[Jorge]

Originally posted by G-Man


I don't see how it makes it any better. Someone who chooses to be christian isn't necesasrily bad, just like people in a certain color are not necesasrily bad.

The race or the color of a person says nothing about his ideas.

Things like religion do, and you can dislike some ideas (you can for example dislike a person only because you know he belongs to a nazi political party). So if you don't like the ideas behind one particular religion you have all the right to dislike that people (for example, if one religion keeps on being homofobic I have all the right to deslike the people that supports that idea). That's nothing to do with racism.

 

[Gothmog]

Things do not become true just because you keep repeating them.

There is no scientific definition for the word race, period. It is a social term and so racism can be used to include religious discrimination.

There is a scientific definition for the word sex. Thus the use of the term sexism for religious discrimination would indeed be a blunder and is not relevant.

This is a semantic argument, and we can agree to disagree.

 

[phoenix_night]

Sensible comments from Jorge. Quite correct.

But why are these people using the word "color"? It's missing a letter...

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Gothmog
Things do not become true just because you keep repeating them.

There is no scientific definition for the word race, period. It is a social term and so racism can be used to include religious discrimination.

There is a scientific definition for the word sex. Thus the use of the term sexism for religious discrimination would indeed be a blunder and is not relevant.

This is a semantic argument, and we can agree to disagree.

That's a pathetic argument.

You can keep saying it's a social term all you like. It doesn't change the fact that race and religion are two different things.

 

[Gothmog]

And that is relevant... how?

If you can't even define race I don't see what your point is.

Why do you get so angry about things like this?