Is this an exploit or a strategy pt II?

[OTAKUjbski]

Consider the following:

• Building Research, Wealth or Culture does not consume overflow
• Building Research, Wealth or Culture does not consume chopped
• The overflow / chop pool can accumulate while building Research, Wealth or Culture

So what happens when you add these together by chopping while building //?

The ability to store production for an indefinite period of time to 'jumpstart' a future Wonder or important unit.

The actual process is simple:

1. Accumulate a large amount of overflow -- usually by building a small unit and/or whipping
2. Begin building Research, Wealth or Culture
3. Chop down every forest in sight around this city
4. Begin building Wonder when ready

{

In a recent game of mine, Marble was in an isolated area and not worth settling next to. Instead, I timed my 2nd city's 3rd Culture pop (thank you, Stonehenge) to encompass the Marble sometime before I learned Literature.

Throughout the entire trek to Literature, I built Research in my capital and chopped every forest going to it. When I got Literature & Marble, 98.66% of the hammers necessary for the GL were already stored in the queue.

The result is the attached screenshot.​

}

The application of this strategy is not only dependent upon the availability of nearby forests but is also a one-time deal per city.

However, if used properly (such as in the GL Super Chop example), this can be a very strong ability.

Application #2 is to accumulate so much overflow that units pour out of the city in rapid succession to benefit from +XP civics more quickly and for a shorter period of time.


So, is this a strategic tool to keep in your belt, or just a simple exploit?

 

[civtrader]

i think it is just a strategic tool. and the strategie is only very limited usefull (you loose the city production during the research time...)

but all the occ-players (like me) say thank you for remembering us.

 

[oyzar]

not an exploit but usefull sometimes.

 

[r_rolo1]

I agree with civtrader. I do think that this feature, even being a powerful one, requires a somehow diffult to acheive control of the situation ( all the chops must go to the same city, sometimes this can be hard ), so does not pass the exploit border.

P.S. How about a whip something-> (( research/wealth/culture) banking overflow)->....-> wonder tactic?

 

[Florian]

Stockpiling timber for a rapid wonder build is no less realistic than having 8 worker units chop 8 forests simultaneously and attaining the same effect, so I don't think this strategy damages the simulation. Nor do I think it unbalances things strategically, since you're stockpiling limited resources, and the same instant-wonder effect can be attained by using a Great Engineer.

 

[mrt144]

chopping a forest with 8 workers is wasteful.

 

[druidravi]

It is a borderline exploit however since you accumulate the disadvantage of only building research,wealth,culture during the time , its not imbalanced

 

[mrchadt]

It's another good idea, like the last one. Thanks for these.

 

[dalessi12]

While it may be useful in extreme circumstances, there are some drawbacks. Namely, the hammers you get from chopping while you are "building" Research, do not get Org Religion bonuses, or also, in the case of Wonders, do not get the production bonuses of having marble hooked or Industrious trait. In effect, you have wasted a bunch of hammers that those trees could have given you if you were making a building, or a wonder (assuming Ind trait or resource hooked, even worse).

I guess if the wonder is super important to you, and you feel that you will miss it if you wait for the marble bonus hammers, then it may be worth it. Personally I just hate losing hammers; to the point I often attempt to hold off on chopping en masse until Mathematics.

 

[druidravi]

It does not work like that anymore. It was so in unpatched vanilla. Now it just adds all chop hammers + production + overflow and the turn which structure is is being built the resource or trait discount comes into play. For example if you chop all those forests without marble for great library , then build great library the turn you get marble connected , you will get the double production applied to all those hammers. works best if you wait till you get buearcracy+ resource+ industrious+organized relegion+forge and unload all the hammers. You will get 50+100+50+25+25= 250% bonus hammers then. 30 hammers of forest will give you 105 hammers for your wonder . Works best with spiritual .

 

[dalessi12]

It does not work like that anymore. It was so in unpatched vanilla. Now it just adds all chop hammers + production + overflow and the turn which structure is is being built the resource or trait discount comes into play. For example if you chop all those forests without marble for great library , then build great library the turn you get marble connected , you will get the double production applied to all those hammers. works best if you wait till you get buearcracy+ resource+ industrious+organized relegion+forge and unload all the hammers. You will get 50+100+50+25+25= 250% bonus hammers then. 30 hammers of forest will give you 105 hammers for your wonder . Works best with spiritual .

Really? Wow. I may have to try this then. I have no idea why they changed the mechanics from vanilla, but either way it is good to know. Thanks for the info.

 

[carl corey]

Something pretty similar was done by pre-chopping forests: move to forest tile, road, chop until one turn from completion, next forest. Then, when you build the wonder just move along the road and have one instant 30 hammer boost per worker per turn. This strategy also lets you build other things than research/money/culture in the meantime but has the "defect" that you have to road the tile... well, unless you're Indian, of course. And even then, hills have to be roaded first, but you're gonna mine/windmill hills anyway. So make sure you road tiles on which you're going to build improvements first.

I wouldn't call yours an exploit. It was clearly designed to bank hammers when building research/money/culture, how many hammers doesn't matter.

 

[pigswill]

Working out if this is an exploit means second guessing the intent of the designer. It might be worth checking with the moderators if this is a permissible trick in gotm.

 

[cabert]

I've tried something along those lines in this thread.

2 things.
- It is an exploit (at least the way I did it). But it's hard work for a somewhat small reward IMHO. It may be something to use in a tight space race though (see below a similar exploit).
- Prechopping is already somewhat exploitive, and is commonly seen as a strategy. So real chopping but saved through building research shouldn't be seen as more exploitive. In fact, prechopping is more of an exploit, since you can start chopping before mathematics, and wait till maths are in to cut that last tree and get full reward.

Similar exploit, usable in a tight space race :
We all know that space race is more about teching than about building.
But you can start building things before the tech is in this way (2 level of exploit possible) :
Let's say the tech necessary (or apollo program, if you go for an internet suicide rush before apollo) is 8 turns away :
turn 1 : assign a building. You need something you don't finish in 1 turn. SO either MM your production city to have at least 1 hammer less than necessary or take a large build.
turn 2 : start another building (can be units, but beware of decaying hammers after 10 turns). Same thing = don't finish it.
turn 3: start another building. Same thing = don't finish it.
turn 4: start another building. Same thing = don't finish it.
Turn 5: finish the smallest of those buildings. (*)
turn 6 : finish the second smallest (*)
turn 7 : finish the third (*)
turn 8 : finish the fourth (*)
turn 9, you can start the spaceship part with 4 accumulated overflows.

(*) second level of exploitive building is to $ rush everything even if you would finish the building anyways. This way you apply 5 turns of production in the first turn of spaceship part building.
If you have enough cities and enough money (not a problem, some buildings are cheap and merchants are really handy in the late game) you can really give yourself a big boost in the final push.

My example is only about 8 turns, but you can start a lot earlier in some cities building up your city in the same time.
Here is a list of things you don't necessarily need to finish long before starting the part :
- forge (who needs the production bonus if you $ rush?)
- factory (who needs the production bonus if you $ rush?)
- laboratory (who needs the science bonus in a production city)
- power plant (beware, plants requires a factory so it's only good if you already have the factory)
- supermarket/grocer/aqueduct (who needs the health before the factory/plant is built?)
- ....
With those buildings, you prepare your spaceship builder city AND you offer yourself a nice headstart AND if you manage it well, you get production bonus for the overflows.

This is somewhat exploitive too, isn't it?

 

[JimT]

chopping a forest with 8 workers is wasteful.

Which is why you chop 8 forests with 8 workers

 

[druidravi]

Cabert rushing money takes into account production multipliers. Buying a wonder in an ironworks city would be around half that of an ordinary city. Similarly if you want to develop a city by cash-rushing buy forge first this reduces cost of following building

 

[mrt144]

Which is why you chop 8 forests with 8 workers

so you have 64 workers total?

 

[cabert]

Cabert rushing money takes into account production multipliers. Buying a wonder in an ironworks city would be around half that of an ordinary city. Similarly if you want to develop a city by cash-rushing buy forge first this reduces cost of following building

not in warlords AFAIK

 

[bardolph]

I would call this an exploit. While there is a tradeoff that comes from producing only //, the ability to rush a wonder without using any of the current "rush" methods (GE, slavery, US) has to be an unintended effect.

The question then becomes, would making overflow apply to // fix the issue, or would it create a new exploit?

BTW, I also consider pre-chopping forests to be an exploit. However, it is one that is much more difficult to fix.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I've tried something along those lines in this thread.

I'm guessing this was fixed in a patch or something, because ...

Overflow cannot exceed HPT. The only way to accumulate overflow greater than your production potential is by chopping or temporarily increasing your production by assigning excessive priests/engineers and miners.