Is this an Exploit?

[stagnate]

Just a note regarding creating roads as an automatic action (done last). This always really annoyed me with civ3, and thankfully has been fixed in two ways.

First, you can 'activate' a worker, and it doesn't lose it's work status. So you click on the worker building a road, and tell it to build a road, and it completes it.

Second, there is a key combo (Ctrl-/ ???) that makes all automatic moves take place.

 

[Aeson]

I think it's a fair tradeoff. You get the Settler out more slowly, or have to chop more Forests, by not putting any food into it. There are situations where it will be slightly better, situations where it will be slightly worse.

In this case, you have Stone. Chopping a Forest towards Stonehenge, Great Lighthouse, Hanging Gardens, or the Pyramids would give you double the production per Forest Chop as long as it will be fully counting towards the build. Plus the longer you keep the Forests around, the more likely a Forest will grow, giving you more potential chops.

Chopping 3 Forests towards a Settler this way costs you at least 90 potential production... is it worth it?

 

[DaviddesJ]

Just a note regarding creating roads as an automatic action (done last). This always really annoyed me with civ3, and thankfully has been fixed in two ways.

First, you can 'activate' a worker, and it doesn't lose it's work status. So you click on the worker building a road, and tell it to build a road, and it completes it.

Second, there is a key combo (Ctrl-/ ???) that makes all automatic moves take place.

Actually, there are 3 ways: if you just pass with all of your other units (with ENTER), then the automatic moves will be triggered, and you can then move your other units.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I think it's a fair tradeoff. You get the Settler out more slowly, or have to chop more Forests, by not putting any food into it. There are situations where it will be slightly better, situations where it will be slightly worse.

In this case, you have Stone. Chopping a Forest towards Stonehenge, Great Lighthouse, Hanging Gardens, or the Pyramids would give you double the production per Forest Chop as long as it will be fully counting towards the build. Plus the longer you keep the Forests around, the more likely a Forest will grow, giving you more potential chops.

Chopping 3 Forests towards a Settler this way costs you at least 90 potential production... is it worth it?

The reason it seems like an exploit isn't that you're using the forests to rush the Settler, but you're chopping the forests and cranking out the Settler in the exact same turn, instead of having to wait 1 turn for completion.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Now this particular exploit may not seem to be a big deal to you, but I can assure you that even this one will already decide over who gets the awards, And this is just the first, there wil be others. So the top competitors will play the exploits, and will in fact be actively looking for new exploits as happened in the 3OTM, and are sure to find them. They will minimize their write-ups, or not report at all, in order not to reveal any newly found exploits, or they will boast about them, and teach the less experienced participants that the game is all about exploits. In either case, the competition degenerates.

In other words, you're going to *****, *****, *****, about the Civ IV GOTM, just as you did incessantly about the Civ 3 GOTM. Wouldn't it be better, at some point, to just go run your own game with the people who agree with you? If you hate the GOTM so much, why are you here?

Moderator Action: No need for the flaming - debate the points, not the people.

I especially like how, if I reveal everything I know about the game, then I am evil, and if I don't talk about what I find, then I am also evil. How neat your logic is.

And, if "exploits" are allowed, then GOTM sucks, but if the administrators were to create a long list of precise rules about exactly when each player is or isn't allowed to change the contents of their production queue, and then try to explain those rules to hundreds of new players in long threads on these forums, then I'm sure you would whine about that. Somehow it just seems like your goal is to create a no-win situation.

 

[DaviddesJ]

The reason it seems like an exploit isn't that you're using the forests to rush the Settler, but you're chopping the forests and cranking out the Settler in the exact same turn, instead of having to wait 1 turn for completion.

You can't ever finish the settler in the very same turn you chop the forest. The hammers get added to the total for the settler, but production using those hammers doesn't occur until the start of the next turn.

 

[civ_steve]

Well said, DaviddesJ!

Possibly a bug, definitely NOT an exploit! (IMO) An exploit implies some significant advantage, which has not been consistently demonstrated, simply a change in game behavior. Maybe that was the designer's intent anyway, maybe not. Discussing it is good and to be commended! This provides everyone with the knowledge to use this tactic if desired.

Very rarely should you use the AI as an example of how you should play. Play like the AI, and lose! If I wanted to play like the AI, I could just set all AI players, pick one, and follow its progress. I prefer to play like a human, make choices, and gradually improve my skills. Hopefully I don't make the same mistakes over and over again!

Submit your game, Memphus. You deserve to after generating this much discussion; if the GOTM staff decision changes, it can be rejected later.

 

[Ribannah]

Perhaps the best thing to do would be to make food going toward settler/worker production optional. I think I'd find restrictions on where I can allocate my chops/overflow hammers to just be annoying.

Hey, that is an excellent idea, Vardis! That would quite elegantly solve the problem, turn exploits into strategies, and at the same time remove some redundant micromanagement. My compliments!

 

[Più Freddo]

Perhaps the best thing to do would be to make food going toward settler/worker production optional.

It is. Say you have three slices of bread per turn and one hammer per turn -- then just build four Workers and delete the first three before you use them. That way you have used no food towards the production of your Worker.

 

[Ribannah]

Wouldn't it be better, at some point, to just go run your own game with the people who agree with you?

Certainly it would, as I and others did with Civ3 when people who share your views got their way. We are not yet at this 'some point', however, and 'the people', here and elsewhere, still have to form an opinion.

Meanwhile, I would appreciate it greatly if for any personal issues that you have with me, you use private mail, instead of hijacking a thread. Moderator Action: Agreed. Please take this discussion off line

At the beginning of the 3OTM we did create a list of forbidden exploits (and with Civ2 we managed it that way as well). Perhaps that was before you joined. It only changed later, when for instance resource-revealing graphic mods were allowed, and all kinds of end-of-turn trickery.

 

[akots]

I think it's a fair tradeoff. You get the Settler out more slowly, or have to chop more Forests, by not putting any food into it. There are situations where it will be slightly better, situations where it will be slightly worse. ...

It seems absolutely true. Especially this is true on higher dificulty levels where the city cannot grow above size 4 earlier in the game. There is little point in trying to maximize growth because the city will reach the maximal allowed size before more happiness can be acquired. It this case, it seems that having that first settler earlier is more important than growth. However, it all depends on the actual situation in the game. Overall, it does not make much difference imho.

Also, may be I'm the only one having troubles with this but it does not work exactly like described in the patch 1.09. For example, I was building settler, switched to barracks. When the chop is ready and I switch back to settler, the governor sets the second settler in the building queue. Of course, you can delete that second settler and select the first settler from the queue. May be this is how this feature is intended to work?

It is not apparently an exploit, and it is a huge trade off imo. You can either grab a location with the settler built earlier or miss the location which would then be settled by somebody else.

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

Arguably it might be more "realistic" to have forests deliver their production over the course of chopping instead of all at the end, but then you'd need some fancy accounting for partially-chopped forests. And it doesn't take very long to chop a forest, so it's not worth the complication.

This would actually be awesome. For a 30 hammer forest that takes 3 turns, I'd love to get 10 per turn. It would really help when trying to build warriors quickly early and would eliminate this switching discussion.

 

[Ribannah]

Provided they are assigned before you can switch.
Yes, this is another good solution, I think. And it makes sense.
In fact, I would like to see a partial chop reflected in the graphics, as well as a chance that the forest regrows to full size!

Keep in mind though that in order to make it consistent, you would no longer be able to postpone the chop until an improvement has been built. But that makes more sense than it is now, too.
Or, maybe, you will be allowed to leave 1/3 of the forest while building the improvement.

 

[MerakSpielman]

This would actually be awesome. For a 30 hammer forest that takes 3 turns, I'd love to get 10 per turn. It would really help when trying to build warriors quickly early and would eliminate this switching discussion.

The only problem with this is people chopping a forest for 2 turns to get 20 free production, then leaving the forest for their city. I think it would be fun to have each forest contain a random amount of production - from 10 to 40 - so you never know how long you'd have to chop it for it to go away.

 

[StanNP]

The issue here is not how you MM to get more food while still building a worker/settler, it is "Should warrior/settlers require food?"

In CivIII, they did, because they used up population which had been created with food. It cost 40 wheat or 20 with a granary to build a settler, regardless of where the shields came from.

In CivIV, warriors and settlers do not require food. They can be chopped, built with overrun, etc. If you think they should require food, potentially you could make it a requirement that every settler use 40 food, 20 with a granary as part of their unit cost. Not sure if this could be modded or not.

StanNP

 

[DaveMcW]

I think the real "exploit" is forest chops. Any opening sequence (fishing boats, wonders, settlers, military rush) can be done at triple speed when you have a worker out chopping forest.

Going for an early worker and bronze working is the best strategy in all cases, so it becomes the only possible strategy in competiton.

 

[StanNP]

Going for an early worker and bronze working is the best strategy in all cases, so it becomes the only possible strategy in competiton.

I'm calling it CET (Chop Every Tree) and it appears to be the RCP of CivIV

StanNP

edited to remove reference to IVOTM1 outside of spoiler thread

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Yep, if George W. ever visits the Civ4 Game of the Month Forum, he'd think he'd found new friends, he would.

 

[Shillen]

Yeah I think chops are overpowered. They should only give 10 hammers, not 30.

 

[StanNP]

Here is my minimal impact change to remove the CET strategy from being so dominant during the QSC.

Today Bronze Working gives you the ability to chop and Iron Working gives you the ability to clear jungle.

Just switch these so you can't chop until you get Iron working, but you can cut Jungle down with Bronzeworking. If you want to use a chop heavy strategy and you beeline to Iron Working, you are 30 turns into the game and you have not been able to use your workers to improve roads, camps, farms or pastures. Might still be worth it, but not as a dominant strategy.

Later in the game (assuming you ever get Iron working, ), forests can be converted to shields using the current ratios.

StanNP