IS

[NovaKart]

Sometimes.

I sometimes like to play around with ideas that aren't quite the conventional way of looking at things.

I also like to see things from other viewpoints.

I also imagine that people the world over are pretty much similar to one another. And that treating the "other" as someone wholly "other" is a mistake.

Sometimes - or indeed very often - my way of looking at things causes other people to get upset.

I also don't believe in moral calculations that would have me believe that killing two people is somehow twice as bad as killing one person.

Now, I can understand that other people do make such calculations, it's just that they're not for me, thank you.

Ok it wasn't meant as a criticism. I often play devils advocate too.

 

[Phrossack]

Why are humans holy in your worldview? Ultimately, IS is the product of human fallability. As such, their atrocities simply make clear the stupidity that humans are capable off. IS soldiers are no less human than their victims.

The problem of IS is not that they kill humans, it are the reasons why: Like Christanity and Communism, Islam espouses an egalitarian morality that considers all humans equally trash, including themselves. IS has been the most consequent follower of Islam, not because they follow it to the letter, rather, because they attract all the world's filth in their ranks - those that have no interest in a society that prizes virtues and abilities because they lack it - the ideal people for any ideology of egalitarianism, including Islam. To defeat the ideology of IS intellectually, you must engage its ideology intellectually, rather than pitying their victims. Ultimately, their victims are humans, just like the members of IS. Instead, one must look in admiration to those who are stronger than IS.

If I didn't know better, I'd say you weren't being serious. That's...that's just too creepy.

 

[MacAttack]

I believe Stalin once said that one death is an atrocity, but a million deaths is a statistic.

It could be very possible that Borachio feels the burden to play the IS apologist since they are not represented in this forum. Since it is pretty clear that essentially none of us agree or subscribe to their cause.

 

[Borachio]

Actually a quote from Erich Maria Remarque. But often misattributed to Stalin.

I'm not an IS apologist at all. I deplore every killing carried out by everyone.

I do try to understand what other people are thinking though. Which ever "side" they're on. I never know when it might come in handy.

 

[Tahuti]

Actually a quote from Erich Maria Remarque. But often misattributed to Stalin.

I'm not an IS apologist at all. I deplore every killing carried out by everyone.

I do try to understand what other people are thinking though. Which ever "side" they're on. I never know when it might come in handy.

Well, just to try to think for a moment: What is more important? Human life, or human meaning? If human life is completely meaningless, why is protection to it owed?

Now, this doesn't mean I support IS. They claim to have found meaning, though in reality, they are the losers by submitting themselves to something that possibly doesn't even exist. Although admittedly, what constitutes meaning is subjective.

 

[Borachio]

I don't think human life is completely meaningless, though. I can't tell you what that meaning might be, but it does seem remarkably valuable to me.

If nothing else, every human life represents a significant investment by other people.

I deplore the destruction of buildings and other artefacts for much the same reason. It's simply a waste of resources.

There should be a law against wrecking stuff, imo. (Although I might not be in favour of any laws if I had to consider the matter closely enough.)

 

[Tahuti]

You do seem to admit it is all subjective. Though there is nothing wrong with that either. To me, value has to be made first. Then it can be protected and expounded. There is a very good reason why we loathe IS destruction of ancient artifacts: Because those artifacts present something worth a lot more than IS can ever hope to achieve.

 

[Borachio]

Aren't human beings born with a value, then? An incalculable one, at that?

 

[Tahuti]

Not necessarily, as callous as it may sound. Humans should their own values as they go. Previously, we used religion to inspire ourselves, though eventually, it unravelled because science presented some problems to it, especially the Abrahamic ones.

 

[Tigranes]

The Islamic State extremist group launched an offensive Wednesday in Iraq's western Anbar province, capturing three villages near the provincial capital of Ramadi in what was the most significant threat to the city by the Sunni militants to date. Wednesday's fighting could also further threaten Ramadi, 115 kilometers (70 miles) west of Baghdad. Nearly a decade ago, Ramadi was one of the strongholds of the insurgency in the U.S.-led war in Iraq. It now is mostly held by Iraqi government forces, although militants control some parts of it, mainly on the outskirts.

In a dawn advance, IS extremists seized the villages of Sjariyah, Albu-Ghanim and Soufiya, which had also been under government control until now, and residents said they had to flee their homes. Fighting was also taking place on the eastern edges of Ramadi, about 2 kilometers (a mile) from a government building, they added.

In Soufiya, the militants bombed a police station and took over a power plant. The residents, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they feared for their safety, said airstrikes were trying to back up Iraqi troops. Iraqi security officials could not immediately be reached for comment.

Around noon Wednesday, the militants opened another front with government troops on three other villages to the northeast of Ramadi, the residents added.

An Iraqi intelligence official said the militants were preparing to launch another offensive from the western side of the city, describing the situation as "critical."

The IS was also trying to take control of the main highway that goes through Ramadi to cut off supplies, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the media.

Defense Ministry spokesman Brig. Gen.Tahseen Ibrahimacknowledged that Islamic State militants "gained a foothold in some areas" in Anbar. But he said reinforcements were sent to the province and that airstrikes from theU.S.-led coalitionwere supporting Iraqi forces.

"The situation is under control, and the standoff will be resolved in the coming hours," Ibrahim toldThe Associated Press. He added, however, that most of the villagers in the area had fled from their homes amid the fighting.

Hundreds of U.S. and coalition forces have been training Iraqi troops at Anbar's Ain Al-Asad air base, about 110 kilometers (68 miles) west of Ramadi, which came under IS attack in mid-February. The attack, which involved a suicide bomber, was repelled.

The Anbar fighting coincides with Iraqi Prime MinisterHaider al-Abadi's visit to Washington where he met Tuesday with PresidentBarack Obamaand appealed for greater support from the coalition carrying out airstrikes against the IS militants, who have also captured large areas in neighboring Syria. While Obama has pledged another $200 million in humanitarian aid, he made no mention of any further military support.

 

[Tigranes]

Not necessarily, as callous as it may sound. Humans should their own values as they go. Previously, we used religion to inspire ourselves, though eventually, it unravelled because science presented some problems to it, especially the Abrahamic ones.

I do science for living and can not point an instance where science discredited values inspired by religion. Bring forth an example please.

 

[Borachio]

Well, not the hard sciences like physics, chemistry, and biology. At least nothing springs to mind. But maybe the scientific habits of critical thinking have certainly done some discrediting of values inspired by religion?

And doesn't evolution discredit the "value" of thinking God made man and gave him dominion over all the animals?

Just for a random, probably not terribly well thought-out, example.

 

[Tahuti]

And doesn't evolution discredit the "value" of thinking God made man and gave him dominion over all the animals?

Exactly. Thank you Borachio.

That being said, some religions are better equipped to deal with challenges from science than others. Hindu cosmology shows some very interesting commonalities with recent astrophysical discoveries.

And in some ways, science is a religion too. Or at least a tool for religious pursuits. It is pretty much impossible to be non-religious: Even antitheists believe in something nonmaterial.

 

[Borachio]

That's interesting.

I don't believe in anything non-material. But I wouldn't describe myself as either non-religious, or antitheist.

(Though actually I could just as easily say I don't believe in anything material. My position is that the world (and anything so-called "beyond") is made of one "stuff". Matter or Spirit, take your pick. But you can't have both, I think. Dualism really doesn't add up to a hill of beans, imo.)

 

[MacAttack]

Actually a quote from Erich Maria Remarque. But often misattributed to Stalin.

There is a good chance that Stalin read All Quiet on the Western Front, and used the quote. Just everyone else who didn't read the book, may have not gotten the reference.

Who knows, Erich Maria Remarque may have heard it from someone else and used it in his book.

My point is, it does not matter who said it, the message is what we are looking for.

Ainsi, presque tout est imitation. - Voltaire

 

[Tahuti]

That's interesting.

I don't believe in anything non-material. But I wouldn't describe myself as either non-religious, or antitheist.

(Though actually I could just as easily say I don't believe in anything material. My position is that the world (and anything so-called "beyond") is made of one "stuff". Matter or Spirit, take your pick. But you can't have both, I think. Dualism really doesn't add up to a hill of beans, imo.)

Well, I would say ideas like 'love' are non-material, even if those aren't referred to as spiritual things by necessity.

 

[Borachio]

And I'd say that ideas are material processes of the brain.

Ainsi, presque tout est imitation. - Voltaire

Indeed, Monsieur Voltaire.

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

 

[Tahuti]

And I'd say that ideas are material processes of the brain.

If you believe that, than you would have to believe all religious ideas are material processes too. And that would render the distinction between the material and non-material completely useless.

And in fact, you do not have to believe in the supernatural to believe in the nonmaterial.

Take software: That is non-material. It is HOWEVER materially engraved on a medium of storage, yet the medium of storage that contains the software is not the software. It is right combination of material engravings that makes the software. It is an example how the material manages to create the nonmaterial.

 

[Borachio]

If you believe that, than you would have to believe all religious ideas are material processes too. And that would render the distinction between the material and non-material completely useless.

That's correct.

Take software: That is non-material.

I don't know what this means.

Are you saying that software inhabits a non-material realm of some kind?

 

[Tahuti]

Are you saying that software inhabits a non-material realm of some kind?

I didn't say anything like these. Read my previous post more closely. I have explained the process already.