Issue Apathy

[SS-18 ICBM]

What duty? There's nothing you personally can do about these issues.

Not even during election time?

 

[Borachio]

Do you get to vote about what's going to be done about ISIS and the Ukraine? And how much weight do you think your vote carries in any case?

 

[Lay_Lay]

Here's something no one ever said.
"Oh how interesting. I will click to read this article about a labor strike!"

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Do you get to vote about what's going to be done about ISIS and the Ukraine? And how much weight do you think your vote carries in any case?

Assuming the candidates promise different things...kind of. As for the second question, more than nothing.

Here's something no one ever said.
"Oh how interesting. I will click to read this article about a labor strike!"

Well, I won't say it out loud. That would be weird.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Not even during election time?

You are informed already. You are under no obligation as an informed citizen to follow the endless looping of the news cycle. Will your opinion of ISIS change when the behead someone else? Probably not. Is the situation in Ukraine likely to change? Probably not.

If you feel an obligation to be an informed voter (good on you for that) there are plenty of other issues that you can investigate. Just because the endless loop of the news cycle is currently stuck on these two doesn't mean you have to be.

 

[Borachio]

I'm learning new things about ISIS everyday. I'm very interested to learn how people just like me can go around beheading other people; who are also just like me.

Only yesterday I learned that ISIS aren't in favour of national boundaries. Just like me.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

You are informed already. You are under no obligation as an informed citizen to follow the endless looping of the news cycle. Will your opinion of ISIS change when the behead someone else?

Well I want to know if intervention is the best idea, and if it is, how should it be done? That sounds like it could be a foreign policy promise. Though you are right, I should look at the domestic issues first. Probably rare that I'll have to use it as a tiebreaker.

Probably not. Is the situation in Ukraine likely to change? Probably not.

That is depressingly true.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Well I want to know if intervention is the best idea, and if it is, how should it be done? That sounds like it could be a foreign policy promise. Though you are right, I should look at the domestic issues first. Probably rare that I'll have to use it as a tiebreaker.

My point was that whether or not intervention is the best idea, in your opinion, is not likely to change based on one beheading more or less. Every beheading is going to get top of the news cycle coverage because it generates clicks. That doesn't mean there is actual information in it.

I personally think that the domestic impact of going to war probably trumps most of the specifically domestic issues, so I don't agree with reducing it to 'tie-breaker' status. But if the intention is 'to be informed' then following the news on this issue is not likely to be of any use.

 

[Domen]

Edit:

Moved to: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=539569&page=63

 

[Crackerbox]

I think a third of Millenials living with their parents, in spite of having professional degrees, is some indication as to the root causes of apathy. The severity of the global economic depression is stunting our responses on a host of issues from Ebola to Isis. People who can't purchase the next generation of homes, and even not getting married, is resulting in a malaise. When so focused on these personal issues, can we expect an outroar over other global matters?

There was a time in America when most people worked one occupation for most of their life, bought a home, raised a family, and then barring divorce the middle class had quite a bit of economic prosperity. Now, that's very uncertain and when disposable income and economic mobility becomes stunted, then people are inwardly focused instead on, "So how the heck will I ever make it and live independently?"

Look up sometime what the average American wage (35K) is and how many hours they work, and you'll see nothing but doom and implosion. Lingering thoughts like that lead to depression and an inability to consider the plight of others. A great many Americans cannot get full time work no matter what.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Can we not do the Eastern Europe graph thing here? Please?

I think a third of Millenials living with their parents, in spite of having professional degrees, is some indication as to the root causes of apathy. The severity of the global economic depression is stunting our responses on a host of issues from Ebola to Isis. People who can't purchase the next generation of homes, and even not getting married, is resulting in a malaise. When so focused on these personal issues, can we expect an outroar over other global matters?

Are you saying the 1990s were the height of the average American's civic global engagement?

 

[Crackerbox]

Are you saying the 1990s were the height of the average American's civic global engagement?

Why do people always think America has a bigger responsibility for global engagement? Is it because of WW2, Korea, and Vietnam? It's really nutty because the world governments hate our meddling in political affairs and then expect us to be the world's policemen.

I'd say that there was more concern in Americans when we had more prosperity. Take AIDS in Africa, Ethiopia Famine, Apartheid, Bosnia, etc and you'd see more of an American response, individually as well as political theatre versus today.

It's back to Maslow and Hierarchy of Need. If you can't take care of basic necessities due to poor job security, then you become apathetic to things higher on the pyramid.

Go back further to say the massive increase in the Middle Class after WW2, home ownership, and the like, and you'll see a focus on ending segregation, more and more integration, all manner of global involvement because we could afford to do so in America.

Americans are tired of largely footing the bill, and every nation is broke. Why wouldn't there be more apathy?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Are you saying the 1990s were the height of the average American's civic global engagement?

If he is I certainly don't agree. If there was a theme that hit a peak in the 1990s it was 'I must get mine!!!' not global civic engagement.

Can we not do the Eastern Europe graph thing here? Please?

This I agree with wholeheartedly. Despite Domen's "you just don't get it!!!" I actually am well aware that Ukraine as a unified nation is a train wreck, was formed as a train wreck waiting to happen, and is almost certainly going to remain a train wreck. I didn't need a replay of the maps yet again in a thread about why following the event minute by minute is a waste of effort.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

I'd say that there was more concern in Americans when we had more prosperity. Take AIDS in Africa, Ethiopia Famine, Apartheid, Bosnia, etc and you'd see more of an American response, individually as well as political theatre versus today.

Most apartheid sanctions were enacted in the 1980s. And the hasty retreat after UNOSOM II seems more emblematic of US citizens' desires to intervene in Africa at the time, i.e. not really dedicated to it.

 

[Crackerbox]

The nineties are oft written about as an age of greed. This is a misnomer. 100 % of Americans were not greedy. It's too simplistic to label a generation as greedy. Were there lots who were? Well there was some notable ones, but far more concentration of wealth happened in present day and from 2007 or so to today then in the 90's. Ancient Roman aristocracy has nothing on the globalists.

There was far more concern about world affairs then... than today. Why? The younger generation has traditionally fought for peace and justice issues merely because young people have traditionally identified as liberals. Do you see the kind of mass protest movements today by Millenials? Why not? They're flat broke and worried about paying for their expensive student loans when they cannot find work, get married, or buy a home.

Young adults are the catalyst for global issues, and instead we have saber rattling by tired old politicians of the same families and it's looking like a political nobility instead of an American Republic. Why would anyone in America be enthusiastic about world affairs under such considitions and why would citizens of other countries expect Americans to pay for social change when they despise us for responding with force or even political pressure?

Heck we have veterans returning to no jobs after failed wars over nebulous threats and you want us to engage more? Why would others expect Americans to do so? The last time that Americans fought in any war in which there was a popular sentiment after the outcome was WW2. Why would we keep doing the same old failed things that end in reversals like Iraq, and then expect more Middle East meddling or worse in the Ukraine have a positive outcome?

We meddled in the Ukraine and helped foster ISIS, and now both have become political hot potatos and what the heck are we to do? Send young people to fight a war with more money we don't have? What would be the economic rationale for doing so? To sell more armaments and make the globalists wealthy while hiding the fact of our complicity. Consider 911 and the Saudi connection and lack of WMD in Iraq, the utter failure in Afghanistan. Since when has our meddling made us really more secure, increased properity for Americans, and made life better for them as well as the world? Not since WW2 and the Nazis. That's really it. No wonder we're apathetic.

Look back to the period of the nineties to the decade of the millenium and you see an intentional action to help refugees by Americans of every part of the political spectrum. There was an influx of these refugees from Cuba, many diverse parts of Africa, and the Middle East. We did think globally and at a cost to ourselves. Most of these immigrants made very fine American citizens. Instead today Americans are irritable because they can't find work, for this isn't that time of prosperity, and we have an influx of illegal immigrants into America that is sanctioned by the government. You can't seperate prosperity from global civic responsibility. Unless people have a better economic position, particularly the young, then you won't find demonstrations to oppose global issues like ISIS and the Ukraine.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Young adults are the catalyst for global issues...

True enough.

The young adults of the current day are so grossly outnumbered by aging baby boomers facing the 'OMG how am I going to convince myself I am not getting old?' that those young adults have little chance of making their voices heard. Similarly, the young adults of the 1990s had little chance of being heard over the crashing wave of the baby boomers abandoning their idealism for straight up materialism.

Once we make it past the 'egg in the snake' effect of baby boomers on demographics things might settle down, but for the present term that generation, just by its disproportionate size, is going to dominate the prioritizing of issues in America.

 

[Crackerbox]

Nope, look to history to see the remarkable effect that young people had on global issues. Nothing could be further than the truth that somehow being outnumbered somehow translated into being disempowered. That youth segment goes for all kinds of social issues domestically as well over segregation and Vietnam if you go back even further.

If you want power, you raise your voice, not make excuses based upon being a perceived minority group without political or economic power. The point is that the less secure one is at the very lowest levels of Maslow, I mean basic survival, then you're not going to be inwardly considering global issues.

Where are the organizing political voices in say music? Where's the Rage Against the Machine for this generation, for example? At most you have the very loose Occupy Movement that seems now emasculated. And this of course was again mostly domestically concerned due to corporatism.

Americans are in a funk, and over clear bankruptcy and we don't have the heart to invest in some global endeavor. If there's not some kind of catalyst in the youth, then don't expect it to happen. There is no optimism here anymore . No one can see some glimmer of a respite from our current economic situation. That leads to a persistent sense of apathy, for people think there's nothing they can do so why bother?

In a genuine way, the very mockery of American materialism in George Romero movies has resulted in postmodern zombies as something to emulate among the Walking Dead fans. It's as if the deep political satire of the zombie genre has been utterly lost. A generation of listless people who feel like they're milling around and purposeless.

The answer to apathy in history is to volunteer and to get active in the things you believe in, for complaining about being apathetic only leads to a misery loves company refrain. It's optimistically believing in helping some rather than trying to help many. And most of the time, it's helping yourself because altruism is good for the cure of your soul. Nothing gets you out of the doldrums more than engaging with people who have monumentally worse problems than you have.

I recall a discussion in Christian missionary work where one of the leaders said, "Should we stop coming and sending volunteers? Would it be better to just send money directly to help your group out? And the reply from the locals was, "No, sharing your stories of your time with us and helping us personally...that does far more to convince people to send assistance than just writing a check."

If you know change is needed, and yet you feel powerless and small, and can't see a point to investing time in some effort, then the best way to get out of that funk is to roll up your sleeves and work anyway.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Nope, look to history to see the remarkable effect that young people had on global issues. Nothing could be further than the truth that somehow being outnumbered somehow translated into being disempowered. That youth segment goes for all kinds of social issues domestically as well over segregation and Vietnam if you go back even further.

If you want power, you raise your voice, not make excuses based upon being a perceived minority group without political or economic power. The point is that the less secure one is at the very lowest levels of Maslow, I mean basic survival, then you're not going to be inwardly considering global issues.

Where are the organizing political voices in say music? Where's the Rage Against the Machine for this generation, for example? At most you have the very loose Occupy Movement that seems now emasculated. And this of course was again mostly domestically concerned due to corporatism.

Americans are in a funk, and over clear bankruptcy and we don't have the heart to invest in some global endeavor. If there's not some kind of catalyst in the youth, then don't expect it to happen. There is no optimism here anymore . No one can see some glimmer of a respite from our current economic situation. That leads to a persistent sense of apathy, for people think there's nothing they can do so why bother?

In a genuine way, the very mockery of American materialism in George Romero movies has resulted in postmodern zombies as something to emulate among the Walking Dead fans. It's as if the deep political satire of the zombie genre has been utterly lost. A generation of listless people who feel like they're milling around and purposeless.

The answer to apathy in history is to volunteer and to get active in the things you believe in, for complaining about being apathetic only leads to a misery loves company refrain. It's optimistically believing in helping some rather than trying to help many. And most of the time, it's helping yourself because altruism is good for the cure of your soul. Nothing gets you out of the doldrums more than engaging with people who have monumentally worse problems than you have.

I recall a discussion in Christian missionary work where one of the leaders said, "Should we stop coming and sending volunteers? Would it be better to just send money directly to help your group out? And the reply from the locals was, "No, sharing your stories of your time with us and helping us personally...that does far more to convince people to send assistance than just writing a check."

If you know change is needed, and yet you feel powerless and small, and can't see a point to investing time in some effort, then the best way to get out of that funk is to roll up your sleeves and work anyway.

I find it enormously funny that while saying I'm wrong about the demographics of the baby boom driving issues you pick two examples of 'the power of young people raising their voices' that both come from when baby boomers were the young people. Young people haven't accomplished jack by comparison since.

Meanwhile, the major thing driving the whole concern about basic survival is that young people right now are faced with survival while knowing (on some level) that they are going to be buried under an immense number of elderly. The baby boomers are approaching standard retirement ages, and can barely cope with the relatively small numbers of their own parent generation as they go raving and slobbering into that good night. When we get old y'all are screwed, and that's basically that. You'll get through it, but there won't be much effort left to be put into improving the world.

 

[Crackerbox]

I find it enormously funny that while saying I'm wrong about the demographics of the baby boom driving issues you pick two examples of 'the power of young people raising their voices' that both come from when baby boomers were the young people. Young people haven't accomplished jack by comparison since.

Meanwhile, the major thing driving the whole concern about basic survival is that young people right now are faced with survival while knowing (on some level) that they are going to be buried under an immense number of elderly. The baby boomers are approaching standard retirement ages, and can barely cope with the relatively small numbers of their own parent generation as they go raving and slobbering into that good night. When we get old y'all are screwed, and that's basically that. You'll get through it, but there won't be much effort left to be put into improving the world.

Buried by the baby boomers who actually paid money into the system. It's a system that is supposed to return back the money that was invested to them. One can hardly complain about an investor getting back their investment when assured by the US government. The government wouldn't lie would they?

Every generation thinks they're disempowered when young, but some try to do something about it. It's that or bend over.

Amusing or not, apathetic or critical or whatever, the main issue exists that when people feel hopeless about their situation, then the natural response is not to help others. What's more enlightened is not to listen to sound bites, but read about ISIS or the Ukraine in books and journal articles, and not let some bought off faux journalist give you the globalist talking points about whether you should or shouldn't be concerned about any issue. Be an independent thinker and decide what you think instead.

I think journalists had more integrity and we read more independently. That's all. It's bad to be cynical when young and apathetic when clearly there are genuine political issues if only people would wake up.

Imagine it's 1939 and people are apathetic about Hitler. Maybe this generation just needs to be galvanized by an event?

There's no simple answers, not when the USA helped create the mess.

 

[downtown]

I feel this same way, to be honest. I don't think I'll ever care as much about everything as I did when I was in college. With so many other responsibilities requiring my attention and energy, I have a limited amount of outrage for disparate political issues.

That isn't to say I've become totally apathetic (there are a handful of issues/stories that I still follow very closely and care a great deal about), but this may be another example of a story that I'm not following nearly as much. The older I get, the more events I imagine will fall into this bucket.