Italian prosecutor requests 13 years in prison for US-American secret agents

[Labtec600]

Soooo without the defendants in the court room....who was this guy arguing to? Just sitting in the courtroom talking to the judge?

 

[Racsoviale]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_absentia

especially: By contrast in some civil law legal systems, such as Italy, trial in absentia is permitted.

 

[Labtec600]

Pretty easy answer - no fair trial - No extradite.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

Oh, and Italy <---nuff said

USA, enough said.

Pulling out random BS with allied nations since forever.

 

[holy king]

WOW, i'm not sure if this is funny or just sad.

And they don't want to hold America responsible, so they are going to charge some CIA people.

Hell, while their at it, why don't they start changing random Marines with a illegal invasion/war in Iraq.

Oh, and Italy <---nuff said

well, those people are accused of kidnapping. should italy try the usa for kidnapping? in what court?

 

[Bill3000]

In absentia trials are unconstitutional within the US, actually. They violate the fifth, sixth, and fourteenth amendments. There are provisions for allowing in absentia trials if they are voluntary, but that's obviously not the case here.

I really don't find it unreasonable that if European countries have conditions to extradite on things such as the death penalty, America could give terms to grant its residents their civil rights within the US constitution once extradited if the other nation does not have them.

...what does the extradition treaty between the US and Italy say? What terms? I have the citation of the treaty as "TIAS 10837" from wiki, but I'm not sure what that means...

 

[Rossiya]

Oh, and Italy <---nuff said

See below.

USA, enough said.

Pulling out random BS with allied nations since forever.

 

[ori]

@Bill3000:

this seems to be the relevant text:

If the person sought has been convicted in absentia or in
contumacy, all issues relating to this aspect of the request shall
be decided by the Executive Authority of the United States or the
competent authorities of Italy. In such cases, the Requesting Party
shall submit such documents as are described in paragraphs 2, 3 and
4 of this Article and a statement regarding the procedures, if any,
that would be available to the person sought if he or she were
extradited.

or to summarize: it's the President's call

 

[Ecofarm]

I'd be particularly interested to hear Ecofarm's take on this

I think the top-guy who did not coordinate with the Italian government should be held responsible in Italy. The guys under him, who would be working under the assumption that their superiors had utilized the proper channels, should not be held responsible.

The individuals did not commit individual civilian crimes against Italy's justice system, they were working for the US government... and the US government official who left them out to dry by not doing his job properly should be held responsible.

CIA guy in charge of coordinating with foreign governments while in country? Meet Big Guido your new cellmate.

But he gets a trial, not absentia. Fair enough?

 

[Sofista]

Good proposal, Ecofarm.

But he gets a trial if he shows up, unlike the others. Italy isn't North Korea, everyone involved could have come to defend himself. Not showing up and then crying their eyes out that they weren't there is a pathetic excuse.
(If I committed a crime in the USA and fled somewhere else, would I, once extradited to the States, be entitled to a trial according to Italian Civil law, or should I submit to American Common law?)

 

[Ecofarm]

He should be tried under Italian law, but he should get a trial there that he can attend. He should be extradited to assure his attendence.

Throw out the absentias, and we give you the guy who failed to do his job for you to try in person.

 

[Lord Baal]

He should be tried under Italian law, but he should get a trial there that he can attend. He should be extradited to assure his attendence.

Throw out the absentias, and we give you the guy who failed to do his job for you to try in person.

/Thread.

Very well said. Both your posts.

 

[holy king]

the thing is, that's not gonna happen.

 

[Sofista]

I think there's maybe a misunderstanding here on the "in absentia" term. As if the defendant was barred from uttering a word or something.

From almighty wiki.it:
"In legal terms, "contumacia" ["in absentia" in English - note] is the condition of those who, while under the obligation to present himself to the tribunal examining a procedure regarding him, omits to do so".

Further down: "Contumacia does not stop the legal iter, which reaches a sentence in any case. The declaration of contumacia requires the acclaration of exact, effective summoning, and also the verification of lack of concrete involuntary impediments, so as to clarify that failing to be present was a free choice of the defendant.
In Italian law, indeed, contumacia is admitted as a possible defensive choice, but still the defendant has full right to defend himself (as well as the right to a just trial), therefore being entitled to being present to every phase of the debate. The moment the concerned party's presence is registered opens the proceedings, while he subsequently leaving voluntarily has no effect. Where a patrocinant isn't expressedly nominated, a court-appointed attorney is assigned to him".

My boldings.
Still, an extradition would already be great.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I've been waiting for this case to finally get to this point. Here is hoping that it gets further than the quite similar Khaled El-Masri case, which was finally dropped by the German government after the US unofficially told them the defendents would not be extradited due to "national security" reasons. And the legal actions in this country were finally dismissed by the US Supreme Court after the ACLU took up the cause.

Of course, acccording to some, the ACLU and anybody else who are offended by these obvious violations of international and US law are "traitors" and even "terrorists":


Link to video.

 

[Lord Baal]

Red X Cheezy.

 

[capslock]

Prosecuting Americans to appease muslims. W T F

 

[Ecofarm]

Italy is muslim??

 

[MobBoss]

Slight difference in extradition of accused criminals, and extradition of government employee/agents because a nation wants to strike back at the USA via their courts.

If people are so quick to defend a coutry like France that has a rule against extradition of their own citizens, then why so much angst against the USA for not wanting their CIA agents being pursued by foreign governments?

 

[capslock]

edit: crosspost
Nah, his argument is to send these Americans to jail IOT rebuild confidence in western democracies lost by America's tactics in the war on terror. Right out of the article. Sounds like appeasement to me? Maybe not, but its still a stupid politcal stunt.