It's no use- I can't do it. Epic failure at CivIV

I don't think you're really being fair.

Joe, you are taking my comments totally out of context.

You can criticize my game play

This is all about helping you not criticizing you. You asked for our help. That is what we are trying to do.

my failure to grasp certain aspects of strategy

That's by your own admission. I don't see a point of contention here.


and my whining,

The only one that I've ever seen accuse you of whining is you. I've never once accused you of whining. It's something that has never crossed my mind

but the fact is I've been trying damned hard to learn what I need to move up in difficulty. .

I know you are trying. You've been trying for quite some time. My point was to try to make you see things a bit differently. To wit, you seem to put these mountains before you when there's all these molehills you really need to focus on right now.

Basically, I'm trying to get you to ask the right questions.
 
And listen to lymond, what he says is right. CIV is no game that you can play without mastering the basics.

Its quite funny reading this, i agree!. But on Civ V i have NO IDEA what i am doing (other than a vague idea to beeline for education and navigation for england) and im dominating.

BTS is much more difficult..

Anyway to the OP, be patient- if i was you.. save a map start where you have a decent start, and keep replaying the same map.. you will learn from your mistakes.

We all struggled to jump levels at some point
 
A big thing that helped me take off from Noble is war can be your best friend. I tried to peaceful expand at Noble, and I had a rough win percentage as you. The moment I started warring early, say as JC using praet stomp, I started to win easily. Then attention to detail helped me advance even further.

I would advise you to take a look at Sisiutil's All Leader Challenge (ALC). He started at prince and advanced until Immortal. Reading those gave me insight in how to further my game.

praet stomp on noble seems overkill, it works perfectly well on emp too ;)
 
I took some time to read your earlier threads and it seems you already got plenty of great advice from very good players. Maybe the problem is you're trying to implement them all at once and forgetting about the basics. So I'd like to give you some more generic advice, which may or may not help:

Method A. The basics about how to post a game (to be able to learn from it later).

1. Choose a leader you like and roll a map (I suggest Continents or Pangea for the start). Start a new thread in this subsection and post the game. Do not start playing. Rather, try thinking about what you'd like to do, and post your thoughts with the game. A sentence like 'I'd like to build a worker first while my warrior circles the capital starting towards the N since there's a cow visible already; first tech will be Mining because I already have Agriculture to farm my corn' is already enough, but the forumers need to get an idea what you intend to do and why.
So post all this, wait (at least) 2-3 days for the advice to come. Rethink your original plan and play out the turns you wanted. Rinse and repeat, don't play more than 10 turns at once.

Method B: Play until 1AD with these specific goals in mind:
1. Have at least 10 cities.
2. No city should work unimproved tiles.
3. No city should be unhappy.
4. Have Civil Service researched.
5. Your gold / beaker ratio should break even at > 0% research.
6. If you have not achieved 1-5 by 1AD restart the game and try to improve on your methods.

Note 1: I'm suggesting this because you seem to be the impatient type and may want to play alone...

Note 2: 1-5 are not necessary to win a game on Noble. However, if you can achieve it (or get close, even) you will never be able to lose a game on Noble again.

Note 3: the above criteria are not hard to achieve for an experienced player (on any map). If you have difficulties with it at first, try lowering the number of cities to 6 and maybe set CoL as a goal at first. After you manage that go for the original goals.

Note 4: whether you take a few cities off your neighbours or settle your own ones is up to you, but I suggest learning to rex first fighting only barbs.

Note 5: whether you build world wonders to help you is also up to you, but I suggest not going too wonder heavy until you have a feel for the game.

Hints:
If you don't plan an early war don't overbuild on units. Your units are there to spawnbust, to protect your cities / improvements from barbs and for military police. No need for more.

Have enough workers to improve your cities but don't overdo it (don't build more improvements your cites could possibly work).

Key techs for early rexing: food techs to improve the resources you have (map dependent), (Mining), Bronze Working, Pottery, Writing, Currency.

The buildings that will help you achieve your goals are granaries and (some) libraries. Don't overdo on other buildings. Think about how you'd profit from it before you build something.

Snowball effect: this is partially counterintuitive to human nature but in civ 4 you should generally favour short-term investments (with a smaller potential benefit) over long-term investments (with a larger potential benefit). You want to be ahead now and not 100 turns later. You may have won / lost the game in 100 turns. So if you see a forest, chop instead of waiting for lumbermills. Try settling your cities fairly close even if it means overlapping BFCs which will be problematic in the late game. Do not care about what will happen later. Do what's best for you on a given turn.
 
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you got so much land, but so few cities and so few workers...11 cities should have at least 22 workers, you have a total of 6

I am impressed by your military though

switch to slavery and get some workers, as for monty, just switch all the stacks to your cities facing him and get some castles up
 
^^ hehe i played 100 games of civ iv and i cant remember building a castle ever? :)

im sure they are good i just never built them

anyway on workers, one comment

Early to early mid game lots = good

at 1655 though i wouldnt want to make 22 workers, by then most my workers are workshy bums and i disband some...
 
^^ hehe i played 100 games of civ iv and i cant remember building a castle ever? :)

im sure they are good i just never built them

anyway on workers, one comment

Early to early mid game lots = good

at 1655 though i wouldnt want to make 22 workers, by then most my workers are workshy bums and i disband some...

castles are almost a must for any serious players
 
As for your current game: there's no use starting on (non-riverside) cottages at 1600 AD. Cottages are either built earlier or not at all. Run more specs in Nidaros (what do you want the spy for? GA?). Also, get some military police in there. Sparta too. You're running HR after all. Why are you in Caste btw? If you wanted to compensate for not having built those cottages earlier you should really forget about them now and work specs instead.

Also, your cities are too spaced out. That costs more maintenance and takes more worker turns to set up. Try to build them closer to each other next time.

Nevertheless, Toku seems manageable. I'd build trebs now if I was you.

castles are almost a must for any serious players
Why?
 
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Looks like an unloseable position. Set your research to 100% and you'll find you are at the top spot in GNP, production, crop yield, soldiers and population. The stack that shows when you open the save file is a little too wimpy to attack Japan judging by what's in Yokohama, but goodness me do you have lots more stuff everywhere else. Why are you even afraid of being attacked? Also, you have a Great Merchant about to give you 1100 gold to fuel whatever research you need.

However, there are a number of mistakes visible:
  • You're not in Bureaucracy. Vassalage is useless. You're also not using any of the Religion civics.
  • You are way behind in tech for where you are supposed to be at this time. It's hard to tell how this happened since your current situation looks reasonable enough.
  • The way Athens is placed, you'll never be able to work the clams to the west of it. That may be a somewhat unavoidable result of settling in place without full visibility of the surroundings however (if so, this is not a criticism of your play, but of the map generator).
  • Thebes has a similar problem (creating an unworkable fish). It probably needed to be founded on the rice (the fish tile is better than the rice tile).
  • In any case, you should have had a workboat for the fish near Thebes a long time ago.
  • In general, your cities seem too spaced out. Overlap is often good and helpful. You have very good land, and you're not even using all of it - there's an iron tile going to waste outside all your city borders.
  • Many cities are either unhappy, or working unimproved tiles, or both. You need to be in slavery to whip away population that isn't useful to you. You probably also needed more workers to improve more of the land.
  • Corinth is also working useless windmills rather than its cottages. Honestly I'd rather have mines on those hills.
  • You're building grocers and markets, which are mostly useless to you. Whip away the unhealthy/unhappy population. Rather than grocers, build forges in cities that don't have them.
  • New cities like Thebes (or Argos) shouldn't be building their own defensive units, especially if you have huge stacks of idle units lying around elsewhere. In a new city, focus on getting essential infrastructure (granaries...) up immediately. Workboats for both of these cities could have been built out of Athens to get them out faster.
  • A minor thing, but I wouldn't promote Macemen with Charge.

My next steps here are to switch to Bureaucracy, Organized Religion, Slavery. That takes two turns, meanwhile arrange troops into two huge stacks placed so as to be able to reach Yokohama and Satsuma as quickly as possible. Some of the defensive units in Utrecht (one longbow and some archers) get moved to Amsterdam. Some other units are shuffled so that no city is empty. Once out of Anarchy, switch Athens to a workboat, Thebes and Corinth to a forge (which we'll whip), Nidaros to a settler (which we'll whip). Some workers are instructed to replace windmills with mines. Other workers start to provide irrigation to dry farms. Argos whips the workboat, switches to Granary.

I get to capture two Japanese cities quickly. Due to not paying enough attention I get a bit of a counterattack at Etruscan, but nothing I can't handle with the units that I held back (and some Knights and Horse Archers that move back once Yokohama and Satsuma no longer slow them down with Japanese culture). I obtain Paper (and Aesthetics), through trade and spying, and start researching Education and later Liberalism. Should later also get Literature, and build the National Epic in Nidaros (due to all the food) and the Heroic Epic perhaps in Corinth (what with those hills that could be mined).
In cities that have nothing better to do I build a few Buddhist missionaries to spread our religion to cities that don't have it yet, for the Organized Religion bonus.
I'm the first to Liberalism in 1750, and the Japanese capitulate in 1765 after I take all their cities on my continent, despite some annoying sloppiness-induced late setbacks (and Montezuma and Sury, who'd also declared on Tokugawa, nearly beat me to the last city). Meanwhile I've founded five cities in your original territory. Sadly Sury is first to Economics.

Try to achieve a similar result from your save.
 

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castles are almost a must for any serious players

ok ok i must not be a serious player.. which is true i guess as i play for fun ;)

i dont play civ 4 anymore
(although i may be back as the ai simply cannot fight in civ 5)

but i seem to recall walls and castles became obsolete with gunpowder units, and needed engineering?

therefore they always seemed to me hammers into a short term gain in defense

im going from memory though so may be wrong

seriously though mate, i may not be an expert like the posters here, but i won my first 4 games (noble, monarch, monarch, emperor) so i am 'semi competant' lol

edit - extra trade route till economics..forgot that, still never considered them essential :)
 
I thought that's what the palace was there for... :mischief:

No king would share his home with a horde of Burocrats :mad: .

Ok ok, the home of the king is the newly conquered city ^^ . Castles really aren't needed ^^ .
 
People, people, stop this silliness.

Burocrats live on the forbidden palace, don't you know anything? then you must create an herbalist and build a part of the great wall... and offer some ceramics to summon Nu Wa.

No, wait... those are tips for Emperor: Rise of the Middle Kingdom...
 
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Ok ok, the home of the king is the newly conquered city ^^ .
I guess that makes sense. Surely they'd be leading the charge given that they're immortal anyway :)
 
Looks like an unloseable position. Set your research to 100% and you'll find you are at the top spot in GNP, production, crop yield, soldiers and population. The stack that shows when you open the save file is a little too wimpy to attack Japan judging by what's in Yokohama, but goodness me do you have lots more stuff everywhere else. Why are you even afraid of being attacked? Also, you have a Great Merchant about to give you 1100 gold to fuel whatever research you need.

However, there are a number of mistakes visible:
  • You're not in Bureaucracy. Vassalage is useless. You're also not using any of the Religion civics.
  • You are way behind in tech for where you are supposed to be at this time. It's hard to tell how this happened since your current situation looks reasonable enough.
  • The way Athens is placed, you'll never be able to work the clams to the west of it. That may be a somewhat unavoidable result of settling in place without full visibility of the surroundings however (if so, this is not a criticism of your play, but of the map generator).
  • Thebes has a similar problem (creating an unworkable fish). It probably needed to be founded on the rice (the fish tile is better than the rice tile).
  • In any case, you should have had a workboat for the fish near Thebes a long time ago.
  • In general, your cities seem too spaced out. Overlap is often good and helpful. You have very good land, and you're not even using all of it - there's an iron tile going to waste outside all your city borders.
  • Many cities are either unhappy, or working unimproved tiles, or both. You need to be in slavery to whip away population that isn't useful to you. You probably also needed more workers to improve more of the land.
  • Corinth is also working useless windmills rather than its cottages. Honestly I'd rather have mines on those hills.
  • You're building grocers and markets, which are mostly useless to you. Whip away the unhealthy/unhappy population. Rather than grocers, build forges in cities that don't have them.
  • New cities like Thebes (or Argos) shouldn't be building their own defensive units, especially if you have huge stacks of idle units lying around elsewhere. In a new city, focus on getting essential infrastructure (granaries...) up immediately. Workboats for both of these cities could have been built out of Athens to get them out faster.
  • A minor thing, but I wouldn't promote Macemen with Charge.

My next steps here are to switch to Bureaucracy, Organized Religion, Slavery. That takes two turns, meanwhile arrange troops into two huge stacks placed so as to be able to reach Yokohama and Satsuma as quickly as possible. Some of the defensive units in Utrecht (one longbow and some archers) get moved to Amsterdam. Some other units are shuffled so that no city is empty. Once out of Anarchy, switch Athens to a workboat, Thebes and Corinth to a forge (which we'll whip), Nidaros to a settler (which we'll whip). Some workers are instructed to replace windmills with mines. Other workers start to provide irrigation to dry farms. Argos whips the workboat, switches to Granary.

I get to capture two Japanese cities quickly. Due to not paying enough attention I get a bit of a counterattack at Etruscan, but nothing I can't handle with the units that I held back (and some Knights and Horse Archers that move back once Yokohama and Satsuma no longer slow them down with Japanese culture). I obtain Paper (and Aesthetics), through trade and spying, and start researching Education and later Liberalism. Should later also get Literature, and build the National Epic in Nidaros (due to all the food) and the Heroic Epic perhaps in Corinth (what with those hills that could be mined).
In cities that have nothing better to do I build a few Buddhist missionaries to spread our religion to cities that don't have it yet, for the Organized Religion bonus.
I'm the first to Liberalism in 1750, and the Japanese capitulate in 1765 after I take all their cities on my continent, despite some annoying sloppiness-induced late setbacks (and Montezuma and Sury, who'd also declared on Tokugawa, nearly beat me to the last city). Meanwhile I've founded five cities in your original territory. Sadly Sury is first to Economics.

Try to achieve a similar result from your save.

Why I did what I did:

1) I switched to vassalage for the experience for my military units in the upcoming wars.
2) Yes. That's my problem. I can't understand how I fell behind.
3) SIP at the beginning.
4) I had a workboat. I believe it was secretly destroyed by Khymer spies. Is that possible? The Khymer spies did a lot of damage around Thebes and I was forced to attack them following the saved game I provided.
5) The cities are spaced out because that's where they were when I defeated the two civs early in the game. In addition, I placed some cities to try to block the other civs and/or get some resources. I didn't fill in with more cities because the maintenance is already killing me.
6) I thought I had enough workers for the tiles. I always try to get the right balance.
7) OK
8) I'm trying to generate much needed funds to upgrade my military.
9) OK
10) Why?
11) I had slavery but I switched to generate more great people.

Anyway, since my last save, I played it out and I was able to vassal Japan. Later, the Khymer forced my hand with all their covert activities so I thought I'd attack and see where it went. I've made some progress against them and the Aztecs but I'm still behind in tech. I don't know where this game is going, but I feel a bit better about it although I'm obviously doing a lot of things wrong.
 

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