I've decided I don't like firefox.

[Asher]

Opera download size: 4.0MB

Firefox download size: 5.5MB

Download size means nothing when they're both so tiny. Opera is bloaty from a far more important perspective -- its interface.

Fortunately, Opera has spent a lot of time and effort copying Firefox's interface the past two versions to simplify and decutter...but it has a long way to go.

 

[mdwh]

Download size means nothing when they're both so tiny.

The original claim was:

The thing I dislike about Opera is that many of it's "features" I'll never use. It's basically just wasted hard drive space. FireFox lets you pick and chose what you want in your browser.

I agree, file size doesn't really make much difference, but I was addressing the idea that Firefox is supposedly smaller due to not including features.

Opera is bloaty from a far more important perspective -- its interface.

Fortunately, Opera has spent a lot of time and effort copying Firefox's interface the past two versions to simplify and decutter...but it has a long way to go.

Seems fine andd uncluttered to me, same, just a row of buttons and looks pretty much identical to my Firefox, though I forget what the default installs is these days.

I also find the Quick Preferences very handy, not sure if Firefox has that?

And let's not forget that Firefox had to copy some great features off of Opera (e.g., tabs - and it still didn't get that right, one of the main things about tabs is that they are saved when you restart ... yes, yes, I know that I can search the web, faff about and install an extension to do the same thing Opera did years earlier

 

[Speedo]

FF's UI is god-awful out of the box. Opera's isn't so great either, but at least it can be utterly and completely customized.

 

[Asher]

The original claim was:

I agree, file size doesn't really make much difference, but I was addressing the idea that Firefox is supposedly smaller due to not including features.

You still did not address the issue, because download size has virtually nothing to do with extracted, installed filesize.

Seems fine andd uncluttered to me, same, just a row of buttons and looks pretty much identical to my Firefox, though I forget what the default installs is these days.

You should've seen Opera before Firefox's rise in popularity. Gaudy, tacky, bloaty, ad-ware...it's been playing catchup to Firefox ever since.

I also find the Quick Preferences very handy, not sure if Firefox has that?

And let's not forget that Firefox had to copy some great features off of Opera (e.g., tabs - and it still didn't get that right, one of the main things about tabs is that they are saved when you restart ... yes, yes, I know that I can search the web, faff about and install an extension to do the same thing Opera did years earlier

Don't know what quick preferences is -- do elaborate.

As for "Opera inventing tabs" -- common misconception.

First, Opera's original tabs were not tabs. They were a multi-document Window, emulating Excel's behaviour in the Office 97 era which was since dropped since it was, honestly, awful. This is where Opera fans claim tabs were born.

Second, until last year, Opera called them "pages". Now, to copy Firefox, they're "tabs".

Here's a history lesson on tabbed browsing:
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/008433.html

Tabbed browsing is neither a Firefox nor Opera invention. Firefox and Opera fans, both, should step back from any claims to this invention.

The first real tabbed browser with any significant presence on the web was Netcaptor, created by the very talented Adam Stiles way back in 1997.

The next major implementation of tabbed browsing was the work of HJ van Rantwijk with MultiZilla, a tabbed browsing extension for Mozilla that copied pretty much everything that Adam had done in Netcaptor. HJ launched this extension for Mozilla back in 2000.

In September of 2001, Dave Hyatt added a tabbed browsing mode to Mozilla. This feature was release in Mozilla 0.9.5 in October of 2001

In December of 2001, Opera Software released version 6 of its Opera browser which was the first version to contain a genuined tabbed browsing mode (along with its SDI and MDI modes).

In September of 2002, Phoenix 0.1 (which would eventually be renamed to Firefox) shipped its first release which contained the most usable tabbed browsing implemenatation to date ;-)

In January of 2003, Apple introduced the Safari web browser which contained a very nice tabs implemenation.

In May of 2005, Microsoft announced that IE 7 (due later in the year) would have a tabbed browsing interface. The MSN team at Microsoft shipped a tabs-capable toolbar for IE 6 in June of 2005.

 

[mdwh]

You still did not address the issue, because download size has virtually nothing to do with extracted, installed filesize.

I don't know what the latest fresh installs are like, but my Opera 9.02 folder is 21.3MB, my Firefox 1.5.0.7 is 27.1MB.

You should've seen Opera before Firefox's rise in popularity. Gaudy, tacky, bloaty, ad-ware...it's been playing catchup to Firefox ever since.

I was using Opera before Firefox even existed. Worked just fine - yes it had an ad, or you could pay - what were you using?

Don't know what quick preferences is -- do elaborate.

I press F12 and get a popup with common preferences, like enabling/disabling various things.

First, Opera's original tabs were not tabs. They were a multi-document Window, emulating Excel's behaviour in the Office 97 era which was since dropped since it was, honestly, awful. This is where Opera fans claim tabs were born.

How do "tabs" differ then?

Second, until last year, Opera called them "pages". Now, to copy Firefox, they're "tabs".

Yes, because it was only Firefox that made a big hype about it, as if they were some brand new thing. Being able to keep open several pages (unlike Firefox which forgets when you restart, without the extension) is taken for grant. But obviously when everyone started going "Firefox is better, it has tabs", obviously they had to rename. Firefox didn't invent tabs.

Edit - and that link is wrong, or I presume it's making some distinction between tabs and MDI? The point is, I could keep open multiple pages, and I was doing that before 2001. How do "tabs" differ? The only differences I'm aware of are that tabs are embedded in the window, and don't use MDI. But in fact, I prefer MDI (and still have Opera use that mode), e.g., you can resize the windows, allowing viewing two at once, or copy and paste between them more easily. Hmm I can't seem to do this in Firefox - how do you enable it?

 

[Asher]

I press F12 and get a popup with common preferences, like enabling/disabling various things.

I'm curious what purpose this serves? I go into preferences maybe once every six months. It's clearly badly designed if you need to do it more than that.

Yes, because it was only Firefox that made a big hype about it, as if they were some brand new thing. Being able to keep open several pages (unlike Firefox which forgets when you restart, without the extension)

And rightfully so. When you CLOSE the browser, you are ending your session. If you do not mean to end the session, you do not close the browser.

Firefox has this capability, but it is rightfully disabled by default. It only comes into play by default if the browser crashes -- it restores all the tabs you had open. This is an interface faux-pax Opera has by default, IMO.

is taken for grant. But obviously when everyone started going "Firefox is better, it has tabs", obviously they had to rename. Firefox didn't invent tabs.

Neither did Opera, is my point. But Opera did copy the name.

Edit - and that link is wrong, or I presume it's making some distinction between tabs and MDI? The point is, I could keep open multiple pages, and I was doing that before 2001. How do "tabs" differ? The only differences I'm aware of are that tabs are embedded in the window, and don't use MDI. But in fact, I prefer MDI (and still have Opera use that mode), e.g., you can resize the windows, allowing viewing two at once, or copy and paste between them more easily. Hmm I can't seem to do this in Firefox - how do you enable it?

Why you want to use a form of interface that is deprecated in Windows and shunned by HCI experts is beyond me.

I don't think anyone bothered implementing this as an extension because the masochists who prefer that style of interface are probably oldschool Opera users unlikely of switching anyway.

Yes, MDI and tabs are different. MDI is grossly annoying, tabs are helpful. Opera may have had a system of opening multiple documents within the same window, but it was so painful to use no one did use it. Such a system was perfected with tabs, and took off. Using MDI as an "Opera did it first!" excuse is beyond lame. Microsoft Office did it, and rightfully stopped doing it, before Opera even introduced it. Microsoft has since removed MDI support altogether from its new windowing engine in Vista, because it's a terrible interface design.

One of the things I studied at school was human-computer interaction (HCI). Opera had a lot to learn in terms of HCI that Firefox is doing right, and Opera is slowly copying those features over. But a lot of Opera faithful point to MDI (which they incorrectly call "tabs"), and features like saving your session and auto-restoring it when you end your session was nice features. They're bizarre features, non-optimal ones at that. Why do you think Firefox is so much more successful than Opera, which was around way longer?

Opera has some neat rendering technologies, but they squander it with an esoteric interface that plays second fiddle to Firefox's.

Opera still has problems with non-native looking controls in Windows.

 

[Speedo]

Fanbois....

 

[Zelig]

I use adblockplus to block ads
and adblock filterset.g updater

customize google to kill google ads.

I use an external program to block ads in all browers, it works better than adblock. Regrettably, it's Windows only, so I tend to use Firefox more when I'm using Linux, depending on which sites I'm browsing.

download statusbar.

Checked it out, doesn't look like I'd ever use it, the Firefox download window tends to sit on my second monitor anyway, I have no problems with the Opera download tab either.

fasterfox for enhanced prefetching

I'm generally against prefetching, no idea if there's something similar in Opera, as I wouldn't use it.

flashblock both for speeding web page loads without auto flash playing

Not sure about the use of this, if ads are blocked anyway, any flash content is either blocked already, or necessary for site navigation. In any case, Opera can easily block flash content, or my third party program can also do so, for all browsers.

flashgot

Don't really see the point of this one for myself, the default Opera/Firefox download managers work fine, and I use a real FTP client for FTP sites.

IE tab for the super rare pages that wont open in firefox or if i want to see if a page normaly has advertisements.

Opening IE itself isn't much of a hassle, and like you said, it's a rare occurance.

NoScript - disables javascript

Java/Javascript can be enabled/disabled easily in Opera, noscript has some a few nice customizable options, which I do through an external program, or which can be done in Opera with a bit of extra work.

Foxmarks - if you use more than one computer often.. automatically keeps bookmarks synced

I have too much customized stuff on my browsers for this to be useful to me, I keep copies of Opera/Firefox on one of my USB drives to use on computers other than my own. Opera has an add-on to keep bookmarks synced too, works even with the phone version of Opera, and bookmarks can be accessed from other browsers.

Firebug - Immensely useful for web designing.

Firebug is nice, I use it somewhat frequently.

BugMeNot. On most sites with a login field (eg, NY Times), right click on the field and select "Bugmenot". It automatically logs you in with one of many accounts for that site, so you don't need to create one.

Opera has a widget which does the same.

Greasemonkey. I've got all kinds of customization scripts for sites. For instance, I can right click and "Save as" any image on Flickr, even if they're supposed to have that disabled. When I visit Apolyton, posts by various users do not show up on my screen at all (not even the "Click here to view this post" for ignored people). Can download videos painlessly from YouTube also. Duggmirror script automatically redirects me to a mirror of popular digg.com linked sites, which frequently go unresponsive after they get lots of "digg.com" hits.

Opera supports user created scripts as well. I've got the Flickr and Youtube features working in all my browsers already.

The thing is you shouldn't look at it as needing to find extensions to replicate the Opera experience, it's looking at extensions to take it to the next level.

But I prefer my customized Opera experience, extensions allow me to replicate my preferred experience.

Most people don't know what they're missing out on. Check out some of the extensions:

I know about most popular extensions, and checked out a few that I hadn't looked at in much detail in the past, due to the lists people posted in this thread.

You should've seen Opera before Firefox's rise in popularity. Gaudy, tacky, bloaty, ad-ware...it's been playing catchup to Firefox ever since.

I bought Opera back when Phoenix was around, I prefered it for general browsing then as well, although neither Opera nor Phoenix were good for the same amount of sites as they are now. Ad-ware's picked up a real bad rep, they would have done better to have no free version at all.

Both browsers have ripped features from each other, fans of either browser will support it as being more original. Opera is forced to conform to IE/Firefox standards more often than the other way around, simply because of its lower popularity. (ie. they ravamped all the shortcuts for tabs a few versions ago to put them in line with all the other browsers)

I don't know what the latest fresh installs are like, but my Opera 9.02 folder is 21.3MB, my Firefox 1.5.0.7 is 27.1MB.

Opera 9.22 fresh install = 5.72 MB (6,008,182 bytes)
Firefox 2.0.0.6 fresh extraction = 20.1 MB (21,099,056 bytes)

IFirefox has this capability, but it is rightfully disabled by default. It only comes into play by default if the browser crashes -- it restores all the tabs you had open. This is an interface faux-pax Opera has by default, IMO.

Probably should be disabled by default, I use the save session option when I have to close the browser, but if I have a large number of pages/tabs open which I want to all reopen in the future.

I haven't used the Firefox one, so I don't know if it has the capability, but I wish Opera would allow sessions to be saved on a per-window basis. I often keep multiple tabs for different things I'm working on sorted into different windows, and if I could save groups of tabs from certain windows into separate sessions to be opened separately, I'd find it quite handy.


Random Firefox gripe of the day: Is there an easy way to change keyboard shortcut keys without installing an extension?

 

[Asher]

I'm generally against prefetching, no idea if there's something similar in Opera, as I wouldn't use it.

Prefetching is just one option. You should check out the extension.

Opening IE itself isn't much of a hassle, and like you said, it's a rare occurance.

Depends on the user, of course. It is indispensable to me at work, as the corporate intranet is IE-only. I don't even have to think about it, it always remembers which domains I've specified as IE-only and it integrates seamlessly into firefox (bookmarks and everything).

Java/Javascript can be enabled/disabled easily in Opera

Not nearly as easily with nearly the scope. It's the "little things" like this which make the Firefox extensions better than Opera hacks.

I have too much customized stuff on my browsers for this to be useful to me, I keep copies of Opera/Firefox on one of my USB drives to use on computers other than my own. Opera has an add-on to keep bookmarks synced too, works even with the phone version of Opera, and bookmarks can be accessed from other browsers.

Consider the Google BrowserSync extension then. It syncs everything -- including cookies. There's no equivalent Opera functionality.

Opera has a widget which does the same.

The last I checked it paled in comparison to the FF version. For example, does it automatically re-try users without user intervention until it finds a working login?

Opera supports user created scripts as well. I've got the Flickr and Youtube features working in all my browsers already.

Opera's user-created-scripts are an incredible pain to maintain and distribute compared to Greasemonkey...which I'm sure you know.

Random Firefox gripe of the day: Is there an easy way to change keyboard shortcut keys without installing an extension?

Easiest way is an extension. Here's how to do it without an extension: http://www.mozilla.org/unix/customizing.html#keys

 

[Asher]

I just downloaded Opera 9.22, and I see they still haven't figured out that they should use native widgets. It's better than it was, but they still stick out like a sore thumb to me.

It's the attention to detail...

And the non-standard pop-up windows are still ridiculous looking...and inconsistent with the rest of the OS and its applications.

And the pop-up blocker intelligently covers up the window controls. Also, another inconsistency with Windows -- "toasts" slide in from the bottom right in Windows, not the top right...and covering up the window controls is just ridiculous.

I've used Opera for all of 30 seconds and I've already found glaring usability issues. I see not much has changed over the years -- they should really invest in hiring somebody who took HCI 101.

 

[GenMarshall]

Just out of curiosity. Can Opera run on Mac OS 7 (System 7.5.5), Mac OS 8, and Mac OS 9?

(Just an added note, I emulate these OSes through SheepShaver on XP)

 

[FireyFly]

For the first, I don't care what browser you use, I'll still use Opera.


What about searching? Opera: Write "g" followed by the search criterias to search on google. And it's equally easy to add your own search shortcut.
All you have to do is to rightclick in a search box and click "Create search...". When you'v got a search, you can rightclick any selected word(s) on a webpage and go Search -> Google, or if you've created your own, you can select it.

Another great Opera-only feature (AFAIK) is the Trashbin. It stores all your closed web pages so that you can restore them, wonderful for when you accidentally closed a tab.

As for extensions, Opera's always got the Widgets.

The interface IS customizable. For instance, I'm using the default Opera setting, no Status bar. And if you want the status bar, you can place it either at the top, bottom, left or right. You can even show it only when it's needed.

Not nearly as easily with nearly the scope. It's the "little things" like this which make the Firefox extensions better than Opera hacks.

How? By a button somewhere at the top/bottom/left/right. I don't want a million of buttons in my browser. Sorry.

Opera is F12 -> click "Enable JavaScript". Same for Java, Sound, gifs etc.


/FireFly

 

[GVBN]

What about searching? Opera: Write "g" followed by the search criterias to search on google. And it's equally easy to add your own search shortcut.
All you have to do is to rightclick in a search box and click "Create search...". When you'v got a search, you can rightclick any selected word(s) on a webpage and go Search -> Google, or if you've created your own, you can select it.

Firefox supports smart keywords too. Right-click on any search field and create a keyword for it

Another great Opera-only feature (AFAIK) is the Trashbin. It stores all your closed web pages so that you can restore them, wonderful for when you accidentally closed a tab.

Firefox can do this too (History > Recently Closed Tabs)

 

[Mise]

The main problem I've had with Firefox lately is some huge memory leak. When I use Firefox for an extended period of time it seems to consume huge amount of memory.

But I wouldn't switch to another browser, because nothing beats Firefox's adblock.

I have had that same problem since I started using it. Version 2.x hasn't helped at all....

 

[Mise]

IYes, because it was only Firefox that made a big hype about it, as if they were some brand new thing. Being able to keep open several pages (unlike Firefox which forgets when you restart, without the extension) is taken for grant.

And rightfully so. When you CLOSE the browser, you are ending your session. If you do not mean to end the session, you do not close the browser.

Firefox has this capability, but it is rightfully disabled by default. It only comes into play by default if the browser crashes -- it restores all the tabs you had open. This is an interface faux-pax Opera has by default, IMO.

Just FYI, you can turn it on in the options menu. I have it turned on, and it's damn useful. It doesn't ONLY come into play when the browser crashes. When I was looking for a new flat, I had several tabs opened at once. I wanted to turn my computer off so I could sleep, and turn it on the next morning and see them again. Of course, I could bookmark everything, but that would be a rather longwinded way of doing something quite simple.

Why you want to use a form of interface that is deprecated in Windows and shunned by HCI experts is beyond me.

He explained that here:

Edit - and that link is wrong, or I presume it's making some distinction between tabs and MDI? The point is, I could keep open multiple pages, and I was doing that before 2001. How do "tabs" differ? The only differences I'm aware of are that tabs are embedded in the window, and don't use MDI. But in fact, I prefer MDI (and still have Opera use that mode), e.g., you can resize the windows, allowing viewing two at once, or copy and paste between them more easily. Hmm I can't seem to do this in Firefox - how do you enable it?

Yes, MDI and tabs are different. MDI is grossly annoying, tabs are helpful. Opera may have had a system of opening multiple documents within the same window, but it was so painful to use no one did use it. Such a system was perfected with tabs, and took off. Using MDI as an "Opera did it first!" excuse is beyond lame. Microsoft Office did it, and rightfully stopped doing it, before Opera even introduced it. Microsoft has since removed MDI support altogether from its new windowing engine in Vista, because it's a terrible interface design.

I find MDIs useful, still. Access 2003 which I use at work has it. It's useful to compare two outputs, and sometimes I would sorely like to do the same in Firefox, without resizing and screwing up the sizes of my windows.

Yeah, so tabs might be better for MOST people in MOST situations. But SOME people have a need for a MDI. There will always be a place for MDIs, for specific applications, or to cater for specific people.

Why do you think Firefox is so much more successful than Opera, which was around way longer?

Fanbois....

 

[Asher]

For the first, I don't care what browser you use, I'll still use Opera.

What about searching? Opera: Write "g" followed by the search criterias to search on google. And it's equally easy to add your own search shortcut.
All you have to do is to rightclick in a search box and click "Create search...". When you'v got a search, you can rightclick any selected word(s) on a webpage and go Search -> Google, or if you've created your own, you can select it.

Firefox has this. In fact, the rightclick-search-field thing was introduced by Firefox and copied by Opera later. Prior to that you needed to modify configuration files.

Another great Opera-only feature (AFAIK) is the Trashbin. It stores all your closed web pages so that you can restore them, wonderful for when you accidentally closed a tab.

Firefox has this also.

As for extensions, Opera's always got the Widgets.

Widget's are a poor-man's extensions. They're not as powerful, nor as popular.

 

[Asher]

I find MDIs useful, still. Access 2003 which I use at work has it. It's useful to compare two outputs, and sometimes I would sorely like to do the same in Firefox, without resizing and screwing up the sizes of my windows.

The problem is this argument still makes no sense. Firefox windows do not have to be maximized, you can "restore" the windows, resize them, and use them as you please. The only thing MDIs do is add an addition layer of complexity to window management.

Yeah, so tabs might be better for MOST people in MOST situations. But SOME people have a need for a MDI. There will always be a place for MDIs, for specific applications, or to cater for specific people.

Is there really? Microsoft doesn't think so, since that feature was removed from the new APIs for Windows Vista and future OSes.

 

[FireyFly]

Widget's are a poor-man's extensions. They're not as powerful, nor as popular.

That depends, they're kind of gadgets for the desktop; theres i.e. a
very nice clock for it. Made with SVG.


Anyways, you can use FF, no problem for me, but I prefer Opera, okay?

/FireFly

 

[carmen510]

Firefox if I don't want ads (Practically all the time), or I use the Internet for long periods of time. (Which is to say, almost always)

Opera I do use occasionally, mainly to check if my website is compatible, and to browse around.

IE I only use if there is a site I need to go on which is IE only, or if I accidentally click on it.

I've never used Netscape.

Total Usage:

Firefox: 95%
Opera: 2%
IE: 3%

 

[GenMarshall]

I've never used Netscape.

I have in a distant past