JalNES II: Quicker and Easier

[Dachs]

Doesn't Neo-Kadria count as a conqueror of Mesopotania?

Not the southern two-thirds. Y'all are more like Assyria or Syria anyway, being as you are in the middle of the desert around the OMD Iraqi-Syrian border.

Anyway, why should this Hammurabi be a tactical genius?

'Cause there are damned few of us left! We need everyone we can get. Look at it this way: it's better than him being a genial grand strategist.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

Not the southern two-thirds. Y'all are more like Assyria or Syria anyway, being as you are in the middle of the desert around the OMD Iraqi-Syrian border.

'Cause there are damned few of us left! We need everyone we can get. Look at it this way: it's better than him being a genial grand strategist.

Both arguments only appear to work because their irrationality is covered with jokes- had Hammurabi not existed, Neo-Kadria would count as something close to a conqueror of Mesopotania. There is no reason for him to be a tactical genius.

 

[Dachs]

had Hammurabi not existed, Neo-Kadria would count as something close to a conqueror of Mesopotania.

So you were planning on conquering Mesopotamia too, in addition to royally pissing me off with that minor war? You'd still have been on the fringes of Mesopotamia even had you taken over Babylon. Just consider this "stirring up the hornet's nest"; you can try to grab land from the 'barbarians', but this will give them an impetus to unite and fight against you even stronger. It also serves as a good reminder that despite all of the underhanded stratagems and reforms in the world, you can't overcome a good economic base with a terrible one.

There is no reason for him to be a tactical genius.

Who else would they put in charge of their armies? Some random yutz who doesn't know how to fight? I mean come on, so the NPCs aren't pushovers. Sounds like real life.

For the record, though, I'm a little interested in knowing how the Kadrians could take advantage of us being distracted in a war that was supposed to take place before midcentury, and then have their same military leader (who already had spent a good deal of time on reforms) lose a war to a "military genius" who hasn't yet died or launched his final campaign by the end of the hundred year update. That timescale don't work out.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

So you were planning on conquering Mesopotamia too, in addition to royally pissing me off with that minor war? You'd still have been on the fringes of Mesopotamia even had you taken over Babylon. Just consider this "stirring up the hornet's nest"; you can try to grab land from the 'barbarians', but this will give them an impetus to unite and fight against you even stronger. It also serves as a good reminder that despite all of the underhanded stratagems and reforms in the world, you can't overcome a good economic base with a terrible one.

Who else would they put in charge of their armies? Some random yutz who doesn't know how to fight? I mean come on, so the NPCs aren't pushovers. Sounds like real life.

For the record, though, I'm a little interested in knowing how the Kadrians could take advantage of us being distracted in a war that was supposed to take place before midcentury, and then have their same military leader (who already had spent a good deal of time on reforms) lose a war to a "military genius" who hasn't yet died or launched his final campaign by the end of the hundred year update. That timescale don't work out.

Your last paragragh might be right, but not your second or first. Genghis Khan had a terribe economic base, and yet he build an empire larger then that of the Romans, and while they probably would unite against Neo-Kadria, they wouldn't have had an impetus to fight me if I hadn't attacked.

And not every region has a tactical genius- the chances that between them the states had one are not that significant.

MORE POINTS:
My army would not have fought a conventional battle unless the Kadrian forces appeared to have the upper hand or they had been outmanuvred- and it's not likely the battle would have happened near the capital of Babylon if they had outmanuvred.

 

[Dachs]

Genghis Khan had a terribe economic base, and yet he build an empire larger then that of the Romans,

Northern China is a terrible economic base, I agree. You're not fighting the same way he is, and I seriously doubt that you're attempting to compare yourself to Genghis Khan in terms of military skill.

and while they probably would unite against Neo-Kadria, they wouldn't have had an impetus to fight me if I hadn't attacked.

In his last years, Kirp-atal turned to the south, attempting to expand Neo-Kadrian rule to the whole of the Euphrates. This proved to be his undoing, though--at the city of Sippar, the northern outpost of a small state based around Babylon, the Neo-Kadrian forces, including Kirp-atal himself, were slaughtered by the tactical genius and Babylonian ruler Hammurabi.

And you attacked. So the kingdom of Babylon rose from its torpor of the past few centuries and rallied under a military leader against this new threat. None of which sounds particularly implausible to me.

I really don't see what your complaint is. Are you whining because you have to fight an NPC that isn't a pushover? None of what jalapeno_dude has done here, as the mod, is impossible or even all that improbable. And he is the mod, so you're really not supposed to complain.

And not every region has a tactical genius- the chances that between them the states had one are not that significant.

It's not statistically impossible for such a person to be born and take power in Babylon, and so long as that's the case the mod can do it.

MORE POINTS:
My army would not have fought a conventional battle unless the Kadrian forces appeared to have the upper hand or they had been outmanuvred- and it's not likely the battle would have happened near the capital of Babylon if they had outmanuvred.

Why does the battle need to take place far from the capital to involve outmaneuvering? Have you ever read Vom Kriege or, hell, even an account of the life of Julian the Apostate? The concept of "defense in the heart of one's country" is a very old, tried and true method of getting your enemy to string out his supply lines and waste away along the march before smashing him. Too, it sounds as though the Babylonians were fighting at the edges of their kingdom, so they had fresh troops while Neo-Kadria had already had to fight its way through independent city-states to get there.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

Northern China is a terrible economic base, I agree. You're not fighting the same way he is, and I seriously doubt that you're attempting to compare yourself to Genghis Khan in terms of military skill.


And you attacked. So the kingdom of Babylon rose from its torpor of the past few centuries and rallied under a military leader against this new threat. None of which sounds particularly implausible to me.

I really don't see what your complaint is. Are you whining because you have to fight an NPC that isn't a pushover? None of what jalapeno_dude has done here, as the mod, is impossible or even all that improbable. And he is the mod, so you're really not supposed to complain.

It's not statistically impossible for such a person to be born and take power in Babylon, and so long as that's the case the mod can do it.

Why does the battle need to take place far from the capital to involve outmaneuvering? Have you ever read Vom Kriege or, hell, even an account of the life of Julian the Apostate? The concept of "defense in the heart of one's country" is a very old, tried and true method of getting your enemy to string out his supply lines and waste away along the march before smashing him. Too, it sounds as though the Babylonians were fighting at the edges of their kingdom, so they had fresh troops while Neo-Kadria had already had to fight its way through independent city-states to get there.

It's not statistically impossible for the world to spotaneously combust, but it shouldn't happen in an NES. Mods are human, and thus biased- but they should at least try to minimise it, either by some sort of random number generator or trying their best to stick to what's likely, given the orders they get.

I don't compare myself to Genghis Khan in terms of military skill, but sufficent skill- military, diplomatic, strategic, or whatever, can overcome economic diffrences.

Tactical doctrines at this age were not as advanced, so it is unlikely, to my knowledge, that they would have strategically manuvred me near their capital.

 

[Azale]

Would you shut up? Please, just shut up. Your cluttering the thread, bashing the mod (needlessly mind you), and continuing on a pointless argument.

@jal, perhaps proto-biremes? Something like this ship from around 2,500 BC?

Sorry for not catching this anachronism myself

 

[jalapeno_dude]

For the record, though, I'm a little interested in knowing how the Kadrians could take advantage of us being distracted in a war that was supposed to take place before midcentury, and then have their same military leader (who already had spent a good deal of time on reforms) lose a war to a "military genius" who hasn't yet died or launched his final campaign by the end of the hundred year update. That timescale don't work out.

Well remember, he was only there for the beginning of the lost war. Remember, archaeologists don't know everything. Depending on your preference, you can say the Phoenician war lasted until 1535 or so and Kirp-Atal was killed in 1510, which probably works, or that Kirp-Atal's successor took the same name and latter-day historians conflated them together.

Also, note that according to the Short Chronology, which I prefer, Hammurabi was indeed alive in 1700.

@Neverwonagame3: I maintain that the role of a mod is not to make sure everything is as realistic as possible, but to make a good story. You see this all the time in NESes with invasions that happen at the same time, miraculous reliefs of sieges, etc.

In addition, this time period was really more about individual conquerors than states. So I'll often have a nation expand greatly during the update and then shrink upon the conquerors death, which also helps to ensure a balanced situation, which is more fun for everyone.

Finally, sending orders that 1)assume that the king can always dictate the exact tactics for a battle and 2) don't admit the possibility of failure (if we're even, do this and we'll win...if we're outnumbered, do this and we'll win...if we're highly outnumbered, do this and we'll win...) makes it very tempting to send some great conquerors your way.

 

[bestshot9]

About the orders, I just assumed you wanted a general outline and to let the generals of the army decide what to do depending on the situation, because 100 year turns are vague and I thought you wanted military orders to be vague, too, with just the goal listed, then let the military leadership go about doing their job to get it done.

 

[Abaddon]

Seems NWAG hasn't quite accepted that NES don't run exactly how he wants yet....

 

[Neverwonagame3]

I assumed that as this was a gameplay NES, jalapeno_dude would at least to try to be realistic.

 

[jalapeno_dude]

About the orders, I just assumed you wanted a general outline and to let the generals of the army decide what to do depending on the situation, because 100 year turns are vague and I thought you wanted military orders to be vague, too, with just the goal listed, then let the military leadership go about doing their job to get it done.

Well, that's one way to do it. More details may mean something works better, but it could also mean that I'll look for flaws. There's a risk-reward tradeoff.

 

[alex994]

OOC: *toasts the victors* I believe the true testament to a NES' success is the ability for nations to rise and fall. Not suggesting anything in particular, but jal, don't you think it's time for bad things to happen to Carchemish, Hadir Unicus, and Men-nefer? They seem to have been blessed for quite a long time.

 

[jalapeno_dude]

Update Three is now complete. New features include:

-a new first paragraph to the Mesopotamian section, discussing the fall of Urkesh and rise of Arrapha,
-a section on China,
-numerous changes to the map and stats, and
-an actual title, continuing the trend by being slightly more obscure than the last one.

---------------------

Can people give a verdict on whether they want 10-year turns or another 100-year turn?

 

[alex994]

OOC: 100 year turn please.

 

[Dachs]

don't you think it's time for bad things to happen to Carchemish, Hadir Unicus, and Men-nefer? They seem to have been blessed for quite a long time.

Hey man, my country hasn't existed for the entire NES like the ones in China.

Can people give a verdict on whether they want 10-year turns or another 100-year turn?

I'm still interested in 100 year turns. (Or even longer BT-type stuff.) Given how little we know about this period in OTL, I think that making a 10-year turn IT would disturb play mechanics too much and keep us from getting very far in the timeline.

 

[Azale]

It's at a time like this that I almost wish for an apocalyptic event in China...you know, disease, raging barbarian hordes, something. It's a testament to jal's skills that I have not lost interest

That being said, jal if you felt the need to collapse the China cradle, I would go along with the decision. I think 200 year turns to get out of antiquity would be awesome

 

[alex994]

Hey man, my country hasn't existed for the entire NES like the ones in China.

OOC: Chinese countries last eternally. You should have known that

And jal, I actually like azale's idea of 200 year turns! For the same reasons too. When I get the ram, bireme, and fireships *shakes fist at dachs*

 

[jalapeno_dude]

Well, we'll do one more hundred-year turn to get the years even. Then maybe next turn we can switch to 200 year turns.

In any case, orders due in 32 hours.

 

[Dachs]

And jal, I actually like azale's idea of 200 year turns! For the same reasons too. When I get the ram, bireme, and fireships *shakes fist at dachs*

Hey, it's not my fault that jal looked up the bireme date.

...oh, wait, I put it in my orders, so it actually was.