jar01: spain, emporer

[jarred!]

>galleys, galleys, galleys
We could use the galleys currently still forming the chain over to Farsund/plains island to help ship units to bab/arab/mongolia, I don't think we still need that in place? Speaking of, New Bugros' growth is stunted due to lack of harbor/lack of irrigation. Should we build some more settlers there (possibly including settler-disbanding new bugros too) in order to get a few more towns with (unwasted) access to +2 food tiles? This will be at the expense of the cathedral builds, which would take forever, but give us temples after 10 turns (right?).
Also, more sea tiles in our borders means more free tiles that don't count toward the domination limit.

At Mandalgovi we should have enough defense to not lose it during the IBT, but it might also be useful to trade it away next turn (not sending any of our units home).

And do we know the strength of the bab forces at carchemish?

 

[Elephantium]

Yeah, I'd say it's now worth moving the Farsund chain galleys towards MAB island.

New Burgos - Settler-disband it, slow-build a Cathedral, trade it away to the Vikings, I don't care. IMO that island costs us more in having some token defenders than it gains us.

Mandalgovi - yes, it'll hold in the first IBT. It will be threatened the next turn, though, with up to 14 attackers (depending on how the battle on the first IBT goes) -- at that point it's a judgment call. We only have 5 credible defenders vs. 7 immediate attackers; I'm expecting to lose 1-2 Pikes and 1-2 Knights.

The following turn I think we can only muster 3-4 attackers vs. 2 Spears before we can snipe at attackers. All told, I think we'll have 9-10 units attacking us on the second turn.

The situation at Ulaanbaatar is better; we just need to ship more units across to continue the push.

At Carchemish They have a Longbow and 1-2 Spears left. Getting the Knights from Marshpoint across the strait will secure that front until we can line up a steady stream of reinforcements. Just fight defensively - I made the mistake of trying to take Carchemish without enough units - nearly lost the stack of Trebs and Workers

 

[tjs282]

My reasons for urgently wanting gunpowder are as follows..if Will knows gunpowder then I'm sure Hammy does. They are therefore probably steaming towards MT between them. However, if he knows gunpowder then why do we have a load of his spearmen parked outside Mandalgovi and no muskets? Maybe he doesn't have salt (?) With MT possibly not that far away from Hammy, I'd like to keep it that way, if indeed this is the case.

FWIW, I don't think you/we need to panic too hard about Hammy getting MilTrad before we've finished him.

If you haven't read it already, it might be helpful to have a look at @Oystein's War Academy article "What will the AI research next?" for the gritty details (there's a discussion thread somewhere as well, but the link from the article is broken). But what it basically boils down to, is that the more stuff (e.g. units, buildings, abilities, governments, and/or Wonders) that an AI can get from an unknown tech, the more likely it is to (pseudo)randomly 'choose' that tech as its next research target.

We do know that Hammy's got (at least) Theo, Edu/Astro, and Invention. This means that he could be researching -- or might already know -- Gunpowder (Muskets, shows Salt), Printing (trade communications), Banking (Banks) and/or Navigation (safe Ocean travel, Magellans). So he might be researching Gunpowder right now -- but even if he does get it (and don't forget that us buying it from the Dutch will make it cheaper/ easier for him), the next tech on the MilTrad branch is Chemistry, which is 'empty'. This down-weights the (pseudo)random probability of it being chosen as his next research-target, especially in comparison to all those other, juicier tech-targets. So he most likely won't pick Chem for a while, and until he does, he can't see Metallurgy (/MilTrad) either.

Conversely, if he rather goes for Banking first, he can then also see Economics, another Wonder-tech (and if he 'chooses' to learn Printing Press and Banking, then he can see Democracy -- oooh, lookit all the pretty liiiiights...).

Also, Elephantium got the DoW right at the beginning of his set, and played 5 turns, so I would guess that he/we have likely already faced the main brunt of Hammy's attack, i.e. he should start running out of his stockpiled units shortly, and then you'll 'only' need to deal with the newly-built units. If you have a Knight-Army you can use to find and pillage his Iron and/or Horse tile(s), that will also make your life (much) easier, because LBMs can't defend worth a damn.

 

[Judminder]

OK, I started playing and forgot to check this thread before I started so I've been catching up.
Not sure if @Elephantium looked at what other techs Hammy had on offer at the start of his (?) turnset prior to Hammy declaring?
Just to fill in a few gaps for now, I did buy Gunpowder from Will (he is also up at least Theology AND Chemistry). Mandalgovi has survived but we did take some casualties on the first IBT. It also has SALT within its borders.

Questions:
We are settler abandoning New Cordoba to give Vitoria a little more room. Has the forest been left there to settle on top of as I was planning to re-settle on the horses.
I'm pretty sure the Vikings will start getting aggressive on plains island as there is quite a lot of galley movement. I think it would make more sense to settler abandon the cities there and ship all of the units across the water using the current ferry service and then use the galleys for MAB. OR we settler abandon all bar one of the cities and move everything into the last city before gifting it to India or trading it away and then all of the units will be sent back to the home capital anyway without the need for the ferry service. Thoughts?

 

[CKS]

I don't like the idea of getting rid of those cities on the off chance that the Vikings might attack. (I would rather settler abandon them than lose them completely.) However, it will take 10 turns to settler-abandon all of them, so I don't think it really matters. If the Vikings declare in the next few turns and we can't hold the island, we can abandon them or give them away. They still don't have invention, though, and I rather think we can hold the island. Until they declare, we should keep those towns, but keep the settler-abandoning in the back of our minds.

Teleporting troops home via gifted town is what we wouldn't do with our army. How does the team feel about it? My feeling is that teleporting settlers and other units is not significantly different than teleporting the army and that we shouldn't do it. If we are going to evacuate with boats, we'll need to devote significant resources to the task, as we'll have 14 units to transport. Maybe instead send a pair of knights to the island and then send the boats to MAB island.

 

[Elephantium]

I'd say don't re-settle New Cordoba anywhere near the western edge of the Egyptian island. Every tile in that area is wanted by two cities as it is. Instead, send the resulting Settlers from the New Cordoba drawdown over near Asyut or even Heliopolis.

I'd prefer to avoid teleporting any units.

 

[Judminder]

I'm not going to finish tonight as I've run out of time. I have one turn left to play so will hopefully get that plus turn-log done tomorrow. I'll leave the plains island for others to do something with.

 

[Judminder]

Turn 0
1000AD
Bought Gunpowder from Dutch for Spices + 80GPT. Reveals Salt inside Mandalgovi's borders
Bought Abu into v Babs for invention
Changed a few builds

IBT
Lost 3 knights and 2 pikes in Mandalgovi
2 MI lost on outskirts of Ulaanbaatar
Vikings building Leo's
Lots of Viking galley movement around Vadso (building forces?)

Turn1
1010AD
2 galleyloads of reinforcements arrive in Mandalgovi which has Hammy's SOD parked outside
vMI wins vs vMI and promotes
vMI wins (redlined) v vMI
vknight wins v Spear
vKnight wins v eSword
vknight wins v MI and promotes
vknight polishes off the SOD
Army kills 2 x MI outside Najran

Ulaanbaatar
Galley blocked by Hammy and Khan's galleys so retreats North to stay safe(r)
Still in resistance with 1 MP

Carchemish
Lone LB left and went into jungle just north of our stack. He takes some damage from our trebs then we polish him off with vMI. No damage. Other units healing before attacking Carch again.

Set research to chem with a lone scientist in New Palma

Rome and Byblos a little unhappy so brought in a worker to colllect some taxes

Whipped knight in Murcia2
Whipped settler in El-Amarna
Started loading up some workers on tundra island onto galleys so they can do something useful in Spain.

IBT
Arabs kill a couple of Babs units, but are taking a bit of a hammering
No unit losses for us
English settler pair lands on foody island

Saved game
Turn 2
1020AD
Injured a pike with trebs outside Najran and went fishing with eKnight and lost. Oops, should have used the army :-(
Mopped up some of Hammy's units around Mandalgovi with no further losses. No leader
Moves a load of units around

IBT
Not a lot. Hammy's units fled East

Saved game
Turn 3
1030AD
Najran - eKnight dies attacking 2/5 eSword (WTF?). Grrrrr
Najran is ours

Carchemish stack got them down to 1 lone red-lined spear and we only had a full health pike. With babs galley's possibly with reinforcements around I take the chance with a pike and lose 4-0.
Babs spear promotes. My bad - sorry.

Lagash unhappy so set a worker to collect taxes instead.

Whipped galley in Isin
Whipped settler in New Seville

IBT
Hammy asks for peace - we tell him to do one.
Ulaanbaatar finally calms down
Babs completes Sistine chapel in Babylon
Dutch building Leo's
Dutch building Copernicus
Dutch building Magellan's

Saved game
Turn 4
1040AD
Whipped temple in Ulaanbaatar
Carchemish is ours
eKnight beats vpike (Ulaanbaatar I think)

****Computer crashed somewhere around here so I redid the turn with no difference in outcomes*****

IBT
2 of Hammy's knights appear from the fog and lose to our heroic fighters
Dutch complete Copernicus in Maastricht

Turn 5
1050AD
Trebs and cat injured Bab units that landed next to Carshemish (still in resistance), then:
4/5 eMI wins v spear
3/4 vKnight wins v MI

Ulaanbaatar
2 x eKnights win v Mongol LB, MI no promotions
***Some of this stack still have moves left if next player wants to take them North to Hovd***

Dalandzadgad
Combined cats, trebs and units take out Mongol vPike then Babs rPike

Khursan
vKnight win v Babs LB
cat+treb+ vKnight win v vPike outside Najran

Asked Liz to leave our waters in Northern ex-Egypt, she 'says' she will

Whipped settler in Rome, Ur, Memphis
Whipped Library (60) in Lagash
Whipped knight in New Alcorcon, New Asturias
Hired entertainers in New Leon, Salamanca2, Sumer

Luxes up to 30%

Jaen set to Rax. Veto if desired

Quite a few new cities founded over the turnset (forgot to mention those)

Handover notes
Stack at Ulaanbaatar still have moves left.

I forgot about a new galley in Veii so missed my chance to load it up (my bad) before ending the other units' turns.
The ferry service between Veii and Mandalgovi got out of sync because when they returned after the last load there was a mongol galley sniffing around so didn't want to load them up last turn just in case they got sunk.
There is a galley in Mandalgovi that can make 2 return trips next turn and get all of the units in and the 2 galleys can go back to Veii.
Elche requires happiness attention (or it did before I raised the Lux rate and haven't checked again). I thought about whipping a knight (we need military) or cathedral this turn, but will leave it up to next player.

The Dyes outside Zaraqum look like they need to come under new ownership.....

We are REALLY short of units in ex-Egypt now that we have shipped most over to MAB. I would suggest changing some builds and whipping some units ASAP.
'Could' rush the galley this turn in Pithom or change production, but next player can decide.
New Salamanca could potentially whip a knight or musket next turn, as could Jaen2 and Cumae (this turn).
Started to move some workers North in ex-Egypt to help out with wetlands and then ship over the water.

Khurasan may fall next turn (not sure what is in there though) if next player decides to attack.
There are a few units outside Basra that I was aiming to park outside Zaraqum next turn and the galley reinforcements should be able to join them next turn too.
Babs knights came from the North out of the fog last turn to attack Najran so expect more of the same. May want to shift the MI North from Mandalgovi this turn (?)

Good luck!

 

[CKS]

Babs completes Sistine chapel in Babylon
Dutch building Magellan's

Sistine Chapel in Babylon is good but expected news.

Let's trade maps so we can see where we are going on BAM island.

 

[jarred!]

I'll be able to load the save tonight (est) and take a look!

EDIT: Do we know navigation has been discovered?

EDIT2: Dutch do. Gotcha.

 

[tjs282]

Sounds like more good progress has been made, against both the Babs and the Mongols! (also to Tusker!). How are the poor oppressed Mongols faring under our enlightened ministrations?

Khorasan isn't the capital, is it? So it shouldn't be too heavily guarded — but if there's a Pike on top, it might be sensible to Treb it before attacking (if we have any available?)

Vikings building Leo's

So they do now have Invention/Berserks!

@jarred!, try and keep Ragnar friendly!

Dutch building Magellan's

And the Dutch know Navigation!

I forgot about a new galley in Veii so missed my chance to load it up (my bad) before ending the other units' turns.

(Sorry but) I would respectfully submit that this is somewhat poor SG-etiquette, since doing this ties the hands of the next player.

Ideally, the current player would move all units before saving on the last turn of his/her set.

If there are any units that the player initially isn't sure what to do with, he/she should use the 'W'-key/ 'Wait'-button to temporarily skip over them. (@Judminder: If you'd done that in this case, you would have been more likely to notice that you had a new ship available, to embark those active units)

And if the player still isn't sure of the best course of action for any given unit(s) after moving everything else, then rather than simply 'wasting' that unit(s)'s move for the turn, it would be more courteous to simply leave the unit(s) active (i.e. not even fortified or sentried) when the last save is made, and note in the handover that there is still X unmoved unit(s) in Town Y.

The ferry service between Veii and Mandalgovi got out of sync because when they returned after the last load there was a mongol galley sniffing around so didn't want to load them up last turn just in case they got sunk.

And I don't really understand this, either. Why are we (now) shipping units from Veii to Mandalgovi...?

I mean, I get that Mand was threatened, but the whole point of resettling Nuevo Pompeii was so that we could have a continuous stream of (fast-)units arriving in N.Pompeii (ideally with MP to spare), being loaded+shipped across to Dalandzagad in a single turn, and then proceeding immediately to the (advancing) front.

We have an RoP with Abu, so unless Arabia's already been cut in two by the Mongol/Bab advance(?), we can use his roads to get wherever we needed to go in BAM. And as long as there would be a constant stream of units being shipped/unloaded in Dal, it shouldn't matter if the war-front(s) is moving further away from the town -- while our Galleys would also never need to be left exposed in open water...

Let's trade maps so we can see where we are going on BAM island.

Are we assuming that the Dutch have acquired a full World Map already?

If so, I agree, we should definitely buy it! (That would tell us where the BAM-resources are, too)

 

[Judminder]

@tjs282
Did I not say 'my bad'? Sheesh!
The point of the units going to Veii were to be loaded onto ferries to go across the water so I did actually know what I wanted to do with them, but there was no way of doing it (but forgot about the new galley in Veii). Again, my apologies!

Have you looked at the save?

Now that we are at war with Babs as well I thought it made sense to strike while the iron is hot on that peninsula. We have two cities in the South that are not well protected so by taking the rest of Bab's towns in the region we could be a bit safer and start to establish a better foothold. The towns are by no means safe as Babs has units coming down from the North to attack and our defenses will not last without reinforcements. The decision was not to build loads of military and to concentrate on settlers / culture from ex Rome / Sumeria so I've been popping the odd military from non-core towns while I could and sending some up to Nuevo Pompeii and some to Veii. The additional galleys have only just become available at Nuevo Pompeii and units were stacking up (I retreated a galley earlier Northwards out of harms way so it took a couple of turns to get it back to somewhere useful).

 

[CKS]

Are we assuming that the Dutch have acquired a full World Map already?

Yes, I am, since the Babylonians also have Navigation, I figure one of them traded the other for it, and I expect they exchanged maps when they did.

 

[Elephantium]

And I don't really understand this, either. Why are we (now) shipping units from Veii to Mandalgovi...?

I mean, I get that Mand was threatened, but the whole point of resettling Nuevo Pompeii was so that we could have a continuous stream of (fast-)units arriving in N.Pompeii (ideally with MP to spare), being loaded+shipped across to Dalandzagad in a single turn, and then proceeding immediately to the (advancing) front.

BAM island is a three-front affair ATM: Dalandzagad/Ulaanbaatar in the west, Mandalgovi in the center (heavily threatened by hordes of Babylonians), and Carchemish in the east (shoestring defenses there but fortunately little activity on Hammy's part).

Neglecting reinforcements to Mandalgovi would have meant losing the town...in hindsight, perhaps worth trading away instead of reinforcing, but that argument would apply to my turnset as well.

Did I not say 'my bad'? Sheesh!
The point of the units going to Veii were to be loaded onto ferries to go across the water so I did actually know what I wanted to do with them, but there was no way of doing it (but forgot about the new galley in Veii). Again, my apologies!

You did, and for multiple reasons, but don't be dismayed at discussion of blunders. They're often the best learning points in SGs.

 

[jarred!]

Plan:

Tech: lone scientist
Foreign Relations: at war with Babs, Mongols. Appease the Vikings. Get WM from Dutch.
On these notes, I did get a map from the Dutch for our map and 58g, and it revealed the rest of MAB, and I made a trade with the Vikings: give them 1gpt for their 6g. He's furious with us, I'm hoping ongoing trade will help that (or must I gift him?)
Build Queues: Culture on plains and tundra island, settlers and military at Home and on ex-egypt. I'll try to get some more military builds going in ex-egypt.
Military movements: We need to choose whether to disavow Mandalgovi or not. I can get a 4-ship chain from veii running, but if we'd rather lose the city to focus efforts elsewhere, this can also be arranged
Other than that, I'll try to get us dyes hooked and make some headway on Mongolia.

 

[Judminder]

I would be willing to bet that Hammy does not have Salt because I have seen no evidence of muskets. Ensuring Hammy does not get his hands on that Salt in Mandalgovi will ensure we are not swamped by cavalry. Mind you when / if he gets riflemen he won't need salt. If we want control of that peninsula and aim to jointly own all of the land around that southern coastline with Abu then I'd vote we should keep Mandalgovi.

 

[jarred!]

If we want control of that peninsula and aim to jointly own all of the land around that southern coastline with Abu then I'd vote we should keep Mandalgovi.

Most likely I would gift it to the Arabs, and then either the Babs take it (probably not best), or the Arabs hold it. If the Arabs outlast the Babs, we'll just declare on them in turn and take it back. We're planning on ICSing that island too, so we won't be jointly holding anything.
How heavy are the Bab attacks at mandalgovi? If we've survived their initial onslaught and are just seeing newly built units we should be able to keep it.

 

[Judminder]

Yes, I was talking about the immediate future. I know we want total control of that island. The attacks weren't ferocious, but they were from knights. Fortunately we didn't lose a battle, but it could easily have gone the other way. I have no idea if there are loads more coming or not. I don't think the Arabs would be able to hold anything for long so that would be a bad idea.

 

[jarred!]

Most of the turns is what I would lump into micromanaging: cycling through the cities managing moods, turning extra citizens into specialists, and short-rushing. I didn't include these things, and then realized the log is a bit sparse, just a vague description of military movements. Apologies if it's lacking.

1050AD, Turn 0:
Rush some culture on plains island
Change some mm: we had a few entertainers that could become taxmen and a few towns at size 6 with extra food, which could spare a citizen or 2 as taxmen.
Buy a world map from the dutch for our world map and 58g, we now have the lay of hte land at MAB.
Make a trade with the vikings: 6g from them for 1gpt from us. Hopefully having an ongoing trade with them will improve our rating with them.
Some unit movements, but no fighting.

IBT:
Nothing much, knight retreats at khurasan
English ask us to leave
Dutch want furs, I don't trade

1060AD, Turn 1:
A bunch of builds complete, most towns requeue what they were building
I rush some things

Khurasan (Babylonian):
Generate a leader cleaning up longbowmen around khurasan. Attack the city with our army, and hte army drops to 4 health so I sound the retreat to heal (and defend the leader, who couldn't make it all the way to a town.)

Zariqum (Bab):
Move the stack into place.

Choybalsan (Spanish):
Bring a galley around to help ship cats and trebs past the jungle square.

Ulaanbaatar/Dalandzadgad (Spanish):
Unit movements. I have some knights on a mountain , but I haven't seen much in the way of troop movements.

Veii (Spa):
I can get six units across here next turn with all the galleys in the area, so I do.

IBT:
Lose an elite knight at Khurasan.
Dutch want gems

1070AD, Turn 2:
A bunch more builds complete, rush more builds and build more towns..

Carchemish (Spa):
Move troops into town due to bab galley presence.

Najran (Spa):
Leader builds army. I fill it with knights.

Mandalgovi (Spa):
6 units land here, but head to najran to join the SoD

Zariqum (Bab):
Win 3 with 2 knight retreats. Only a 2hp pike shows.

Dalandzadgad (Spa):
Land 6 units here, they head towards almarikh. Win 2, lose 1 in the mountains around town.

Hovd (Mongol):
Stack of 5 knights, an MDI and a treb attacks, 2 knights reatreat, 1 wins, 1 loses, everyone else fortifies.

IBT:
Dutch want horses
Dutch build Leo's

1080AD, Turn 3:
Choy/Carchemish (Spa):
Bab galleys still prowling. I don't move troops north to Sippar.

Zariqum (Bab->Spa):
Attack with a knight, defeat the defender, and take the city!
This gives us dyes, which won't be hooked until astronomy.

Khurasan (Bab):
New knight army attacks and takes down a pike, but drops to 5hp.

Najran (Spa):
We have quite a few troops here now, but half are injured.

Almarikh (Mongol):
Our units arrive this turn, more will show up next turn as well.

Hovd (Mongol):
Fortify units. I shot the treb before checking the units' healths.

IBT:
Lose 1 to babs at Almarikh
A knight retreats to babs at Almarikh
Lose 1 to babs at Najran

Losses gave us more WW? Some cities rioted, but I'm sure I didn't overlook them!

1090AD, Turn 4:
Choybalsan (Spa):
Leave 2 garrisons here, along with a pike and a musket in a galley, to deal with potential bab landings.

Carchemish (Spa):
Send troops north into the jungle, cats will join next turn by sea.

Najran (Spa):
3 knights and an army healing here. I send 2 knights and 2 cats north to Mecca.

Almarikh (Mongol->Spa):
Outside of town, win twice, lose to 1, and retreat bab units.
After 3 successful bombarment, 4 knights win and we take the city! (size 8, ripe for the whipping, with only 1 resister)

Ulaanbaatar (Spa):
Our knights have to slow retreat in order to protect the cat underneath.

IBT:
Arabs want to renew RoP and alliance vs mongols. I renew the RoP, but not the alliance (mongols might not last that long?)
Lose to bab knight outside of Almarikh
Win to bab longbowman outside of Mecca

1100AD, Turn 5:
Empire management...
Sippar (Bab):
7-unit stack is 1 more turn away from the town.

Zariqum (Spa):
3 knights are positioned next to Khurasan, and a stack of 6 units 1 turn behind.

Najran (Spa):
An army, 4 knights and a musket are in the city, 2 cats and 2 more knights are halfway to Mecca.

Almarikh (Spa):
Clean up 2 bab knights outside of town.
Closer to Fustat, a bab pike is wandering around. We have a wounded MDI near it.

Ulaanbaatar (Spa):
Get the stack back into our territory to heal. Defeat 2 Mongol Longbows.

Notes:
Diplomacy:
The Dutch want to trade more with us, but I don't think we want to buy any of his tech. He can give us some cash if we wanted, he doesn't have gems or furs.
Everyone else dislikes us to one degree or another. The Vikings did not declare this set (phew). I moved a pike and a knight to plains island, but mis-clicked with some of the galleys that were part of the chain, so they are in a slight disarray ATM 8)

Military:
Southern MAB:
Sippar should fall to our tiny stack, and units in Zariqum can move next turn to aide.

Middle MAB:
We had bad luck with injuries and weren't able to take Khurasan nor Mecca. The babs rebuilt on old rubble, Nimrud, it should be light on defenses.
Units are ready to attack to Khurasan, and we have a nice stack around Najran, ready to move to Mecca.

Northern MAB:
With mostly fast units, the cats and trebs become a burden. Maybe we need more slow attackers to use with the artilleries?
We capped Almarikh, and have been fighting a few bab units in the area most turns. At Hovd, we have fought loose mongol attackers and defeated some defenders in the town, but are currently healing.

I have some galleys in Jaen to move some workers from egypt to spain. Egypt will be fully terraformed before we will be able to send all of the workers to MAB, so let's send some workers to ex-rome first.

I hope I was able to follow the advice/plans with the rushing. I'm always worrying I'm missing something. I did over-rush (I was excited!) a few times, where I did not stop at a lib or cath like I should have and either rushed a col, or worse, had to stop short.

Pics:

 

[Nathiri]

Nice. Good job. Seems we havent lost ground, which is good.