Jews most persecuted people in history?

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rilnator said:
I think you first need to define where your brain is. What the hell are you talking about? Get your facts straight fool, total destruction means exactly that! There are about 200,000 Aborigines living in Australia today, about the same as when white man arrived.
You obviously have a chip on your shoulder about the British colonization of your country but thats no reason to make up lies about their actions elsewhere.

Who's blaming you or your country now?? :confused:

Are you denying the fact that the Aborigines were not terribly persecuted by the British and first colonizers of Australia??
They didn't exactly have friendly relations with the aborigines and early on the Aborigines did not exactly come off better ffrom their meetings with the Europeans.
Besides, I am still looking for a proper definition of persecution, and you don't need to foam at the mouth for that...

I also find it hard to believe that a people, having lived in contact with the white man, and his medicine and disease DID NOT increase their population for over 4 centuries. Your statistics mean nothing. You are showing one of two things a. The aborigines have a death rate=birth rate without war and epidemic, which means they do not have proper access to Australia's fine medical system or b. They have access to Australia's medical system and their population has grown rapidly in the last few years, in which case, it had come down in the 3 and a half centuries before that, which still validates my point.

Please...think out your posts a little bit, before you reply:)
 
The Jews are an odd bunch.

From what I can understand, the Jewish faith is restricted to only those people of Jewish decent - so it's a racist religion. Stemming from that, they believe that only the Jewish people have a place in heaven.

In my opinion, such a faith is asking for trouble. Any non-Jewish mad man who reads their stuff is likely to lash out.

Ofcourse, they also believe in an eye for an eye, and as Ghandi pointed out... with an eye for an eye, the whole world ends up blind.

I might be wrong about their faith though. It's just that I was told they don't allow outsiders to join; that the faith is seclusive/elitest.
 
stormbind said:
The Jews are an odd bunch.
Perhaps that's because the Jews come from hundreds of ethnic backgrounds.
stormbind said:
From what I can understand, the Jewish faith is restricted to only those people of Jewish decent - so it's a racist religion.
Anyone can convert to Judaism. If they happen to have been Moslem, they run the risk of being murdered by other Moslems, because repudiation of Islam is punishable by death (meaning, any Moslem can murder an ex-Moslem without going through any kind of legal procedure before, during, or after the murder).
stormbind said:
Stemming from that, they believe that only the Jewish people have a place in heaven.
Not surprisingly, Nation of Islam's Louis Farrakhan referred to Judaism as a "dirty religion", but it sounded to everyone who heard his remarks as if he'd called it a "gutter religion". He smugly corrected someone during a short interview I saw at the time. The Nation of Islam is often rejected by traditional Moslems, to an even greater degree than Sufism is rejected, Alawite Islam is rejected, Wahhab is rejected, and every other sect of Islam is rejected by every other sect.

Since the Nation of Islam teaches that a renegade black scientist (who, nevertheless, had a recognizably Jewish name) thousands of years ago created the non-black races in his laboratory in order to oppress his own kind, and also teaches that eventually a UFO will arrive and send out beams which will kill all the non-black races, I think the traditional Moslems are probably on the mark in the case of the NoI.
stormbind said:
In my opinion, such a faith is asking for trouble. Any non-Jewish mad man who reads their stuff is likely to lash out.
Or even any non-Jewish person who doesn't read their stuff. :lol:
stormbind said:
Of course, they also believe in an eye for an eye.
Of course, no they don't.
stormbind said:
I might be wrong about their faith though. It's just that I was told they don't allow outsiders to join; that the faith is seclusive/elitest.
In Roman times Jews were forbidden to welcome converts. The Roman empire had a substantial Jewish population, and not just in the eastern provinces. Jews were exempt from military service because of their observation of the Sabbath, and because there was a massive distrust of the Jews.

FYI -- your source is completely stupid; beware, because your source may also tell you that the Jews caused the Black Death, that they poisoned wells, that they use gentile babies' flesh and blood for their rituals (the "blood libel" refuted continually since ancient times), that they are an odd bunch, or that they deserve punishment by non-Jewish mad men. :lol:
 
SunkenCiv said:
In Roman times Jews were forbidden to welcome converts. The Roman empire had a substantial Jewish population, and not just in the eastern provinces. Jews were exempt from military service because of their observation of the Sabbath, and because there was a massive distrust of the Jews.
Only for a short while. Before that proselytizing was rare if not non-existant. Orthodox Judaism has been an ethnocentric religion for most of its existance.


SunkenCiv said:
FYI -- your source is completely stupid; beware, because your source may also tell you that the Jews caused the Black Death, that they poisoned wells, that they use gentile babies' flesh and blood for their rituals (the "blood libel" refuted continually since ancient times), that they are an odd bunch, or that they deserve punishment by non-Jewish mad men. :lol:


What's his source?
 
Well, the Jews are probably the longest persecuted group in history, but not by any stretch of the imagination the hardest hit- in World War 2, the Slavs suffered infinitely more, and the fact that the Jews still exist, unlike the North Americian Indians is a testament to them being let off easily. In Australia, the survival of the Aborigines was solely down to the fact that there weren't as many white people there as in the US, so they couldn't kill them effectively enough, plus most people thought Australia to be barren and worthless. When you compare the Jews to other peoples, they're not even in the same league, or indeed the same sport.
 
Can we agree, however, that the Jewish people were the most persecuted (that is, 'oppressed or harassed with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion...or beliefs') in Medieval Europe? This, until the age of colonization, must be nearly 1500 years of western history.
 
Well, they were in memory the only oppressed peoples in the Medieval ages, except for Pagans and they still weren't oppressed that badly...
 
~Corsair#01~ said:
Well, they were in memory the only oppressed peoples in the Medieval ages, except for Pagans and they still weren't oppressed that badly...

What about the Cathars, Hussites and so on that the Church ruthlessly attacked for daring to oppose them?
 
Er... sorry my Medieval history isn't that good, I probably shouldn't have said anthing, really. :)
 
stormbind said:
The Jews are an odd bunch.

From what I can understand, the Jewish faith is restricted to only those people of Jewish decent - so it's a racist religion. Stemming from that, they believe that only the Jewish people have a place in heaven.

In my opinion, such a faith is asking for trouble. Any non-Jewish mad man who reads their stuff is likely to lash out.

Ofcourse, they also believe in an eye for an eye, and as Ghandi pointed out... with an eye for an eye, the whole world ends up blind.

I might be wrong about their faith though. It's just that I was told they don't allow outsiders to join; that the faith is seclusive/elitest.

Although some of your point have already been challenged, the one about "only jews get into heave", let me quote that great site jewfaq.org

According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come.
 
A bit of a bump, but someone here needs to enter a plea for the Ainu, a race so relentlessly persecuted that they appear to have disappeared off the mental map of most people, especially in the West.

The Ainu were the indigenous people of Japan, living in the north of the archipelago in Hokkaido. They lived a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, and their origins are an ongoing puzzle for anthropologists since they did not look Asian. In fact, although they had some Asian characteristics, they looked more Caucasian, with thick beards, light skin, blue eyes and wavy hair.

The Japanese (as we now know them) arrived from the Pacific while Europe was going through the Dark Ages. As the Japanese became more numerous and powerful, they came into conflict with the Ainu - a process which started in around the fourteenth century. By the fifteenth century, the Ainu's homelands in the north were the scene for struggles over power and control between the Japanese and Russia, and so particular efforts were made to "Japanesise" the area, encouraging Japanese settlers and doing everything possible to wipe out the native culture.

The Ainu increasingly suffered the fate of indigenous people everywhere: marginalised and persecuted, their language was forbidden, their culture oppressed, and the Ainu themselves enslaved. They fought their oppressors in a number of battles, and were invariably defeated.

It was in the nineteenth century that the Ainu were really broken. Ravaged by disease, their population fell drastically, and the hard slavery and policies of splitting up families to encourage the decay of their culture meant that they could not recover. In the Meiji period (1868-1912), the Japanese government stepped up the persecution by declaring that it owned all Ainu land. The Ainu were officially homeless, and their land was given to Japanese settlers. This was half a century *after* the Treaty of Waitangi, note, when European settlers in New Zealand at least tried to respect the rights of the indigenous people and their land. The Japanese government, for its part, did enact something called the Hokkaido Aborigine Protection Act in 1899, to provide the Ainu with help in establishing themselves as farmers. In fact, of course, this legislation was designed to gloss over, and indeed assist, the policy of eradicating Ainu culture. It provided Ainu with small plots of land to farm, but all the best land had already been taken by Japanese settlers. Inevitably, the Ainu failed in the new lifestyle that had been forced upon them.

At the same time, Ainu were forbidden from following their traditional hunter-gatherer lifestyles, and made to farm the lands that had just been stolen from them. And further attempts were made to eradicate the Ainu language, by making all Ainu children attend schools in Japanese alone.

Here's the worst part of the whole sorry tale. Today, we all know about the struggles of Jews, Native Americans, Australian Aborigines, the Maoris, and the rest. Today, these people are respected and their governments do their best, on the whole, to treat them with dignity. And they themselves are proud of their heritage. None of this is true of the Ainu. True, after WW2, the active persecution and attempts to eradicate Ainu culture ended. Moreover, in 1979, Japan ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as part of its own law - an international ruling that protects the rights of cultural minorities to exist and perpetuate their culture. But Japan did not officially recognise that any such minorities existed within its boundaries - in other words, the Ainu's status as a cultural minority was simply denied. It wasn't until 1991 that Japan officially recognised their existence as an ethnic minority, but continued to deny them any rights, land-related or otherwise, as an indigenous people.

Would you believe that it was only in 1997 that the Japanese government officially recognised the existence of the Ainu as an indigenous people in Japan, and offically endorsed the study and preservation of their culture? It was quite a step forward, given the history - but still, the government did not lay down any rights that the Ainu might enjoy as an indigenous people. And if you think that they even hinted at any wrongdoings in the past, or considered apologising for them - well, you're being a tad optimistic there.

And do the Ainu enjoy the respect and pride of the Maori, the Native Americans, and the rest? No. Polls show that most Japanese regard them as a barbaric and rather embarrassing minority. They do not learn about Ainu culture in school, and the only contact most Japanese have with them is in nicely "preserved" villages for the tourist trade. The terrible history of persecution, and the ongoing ethnic strife, is simply swept under the carpet. Like the invasion of Manchuria, the official Japanese line is: "We don't want to know."

Worst of all, the Ainu themselves have learned to be ashamed of who they are. Today they call themselves not "Ainu" ("human being" in their language) but "Utari" ("Comrade"). Hardly anyone speaks the Ainu language, and of course their religion isn't exactly thriving, even by the standards of overwhelmingly secular Japan. Estimates of their numbers vary wildly, hovering around several tens of thousands - they are so inaccurate because many Ainu do not identify themselves as such (intermarriage, of course, has helped to accentuate the "Asian" features of many Ainu over the more striking "Caucasian" ones). Many more don't even know that they are Ainu at all, because their parents didn't tell them, in order to protect them. The attempts by the Japanese over the centuries to erode the cultural and racial distinctiveness of the Ainu has clearly succeeded.

Given the appalling history of Japanese treatment of the Ainu, and their sorry status today compared to more well-known marginalised groups, they get my vote for "most persecuted people".
 
It may be off topic, Plotinus, but I think you may be right. I've heard of the Ainu, but no one seems to notice how marginalized they are. (I feel slightly guilty having defeated so many Ainu tribes in the Sengoku scenario.) I heard Japan is the most racist country in the world, and this situation seems to support that statement.
 
Adso de Fimnu said:
Can we agree, however, that the Jewish people were the most persecuted (that is, 'oppressed or harassed with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion...or beliefs') in Medieval Europe? This, until the age of colonization, must be nearly 1500 years of western history.

No, we can't ;)

ALL relgious group were persecuted, depending of the current politics.

The Catholics, Protsants (st barthomas massare of 50,000 huhnengots) , Quakers, Puritans and Jews all felt the lash.
 
Interesting Thread.
If we look at the Jews thru all of history, starting in old testiment times, (for the sake of arguement here, lets assume that the old testiment can be used as a historical reference for the jews), with them being pushed around forever, by egypt, Babolyon, Persia, and later, in the NT, Rome, and THEN the middle ages and in the 1930's...you could make a pretty good case. The Slavs and Gypsies were hammered during the 1930's too.

Im a little surprised nobody mentioned the mormons. Chased all around the United States, had their leaders and children killed, and the US Goverment looked away. As far as I know, the mormons are the only religion/group that was LEGAL to kill in America. The Mormon Extermination Act allowed a Man to shoot a Mormon, ( i think this was in Missouri), and collect a 25 cent reward from the state. Thats pretty rough. In my country, they are prob the most persceuted people. In the world, thru-out history, I think I can agree with the Jews tho.
 
Adso de Fimnu said:
I heard Japan is the most racist country in the world, and this situation seems to support that statement.

One hates to say such things, for fear of sounding racist oneself, but I think you could be right. My flatmate grew up there and yesterday told me about a white person resident in Hokkaido who was refused access to the public baths because he wasn't Japanese. The reasoning was presumably that, as a foreigner, he might not know how to behave (eg take soap into the bath or wear swimming trunks or similar behaviour that Japanese find revolting). The notion that this might impinge upon his personal rights is one that simply wouldn't occur to Japanese authorities. Well, he took it pretty seriously and took them to court, before launching a campaign to protect the rights of ethnic minorities. The Japanese authorities are rather bemused by this as it simply isn't the kind of thing that happens in Japan. And as for the bizarre status of people of Korean descent in Japan (they can have Korean passports, even though by any normal reckoning they are Japanese), I'll never understand that.

But this, of course, is entirely off-topic.
 
Gypsies.

They have always been persecuted and are still persecuted today. Particularly in Eastern Europe. Slovakia for example...

Nazis also killed lot of gypsies. Some hundred thousands... who has ever talked about their tragedy.

Jews are not persecuted today, but THEY ARE PERSECUTING palestinians. Gypsies never persecuted anyone. Gypsies are like Jesus... hippies who have never oppressed anyone. Innocent and pure. :jesus:
 
No, we can't

ALL relgious group were persecuted, depending of the current politics.

The Catholics, Protsants (st barthomas massare of 50,000 huhnengots) , Quakers, Puritans and Jews all felt the lash."

Dont forget pagans and other religions in Rome. In reality very few christians were persecuted, but when chistians got in to power they didnt allow any other religions.

Christianity is most intolerant religion in the hole history of man kind. I think this is quite indisputable fact.
 
Interesting Plotinus. I remember my mother once telling me about them but that was the one and only time I ever heard of them until today. One thing I was surprised about, the modern day Japanese came to Japan as late as the European Dark Ages? I thought they were there from before. Anyway that's really interesting and you make a good point about the lack of recognition of their plight. From what I knew of them they didn't look totally Caucasian but definetly did not look Japanese (the type we know). Perhaps this after years of being integrated and supressed. Perhaps the original inhabitants did look more Caucasian.

One hates to say such things, for fear of sounding racist oneself, but I think you could be right. My flatmate grew up there and yesterday told me about a white person resident in Hokkaido who was refused access to the public baths because he wasn't Japanese. The reasoning was presumably that, as a foreigner, he might not know how to behave (eg take soap into the bath or wear swimming trunks or similar behaviour that Japanese find revolting). The notion that this might impinge upon his personal rights is one that simply wouldn't occur to Japanese authorities. Well, he took it pretty seriously and took them to court, before launching a campaign to protect the rights of ethnic minorities. The Japanese authorities are rather bemused by this as it simply isn't the kind of thing that happens in Japan. And as for the bizarre status of people of Korean descent in Japan (they can have Korean passports, even though by any normal reckoning they are Japanese), I'll never understand that.
It's sad but true. The Japanese have never been too tolerant of other groups. Look at what they did to the Chinese and Koreans half a century ago.
 
Yes, blindside - basically the early history of Japan is extremely obscure, but I understand that it's thought that what would later become the Japanese state first emerged in around 300 (perhaps slightly earlier than I suggested). It's a time shrouded in myth and legend, from which practically no records survive. So quite when the Japanese actually arrived there isn't really known, but they certainly weren't the dominant power on the archipelago for some time.
 
Inhalaattori said:
Christianity is most intolerant religion in the hole history of man kind. I think this is quite indisputable fact.

Well I think that fact may be very disputable. Some People may be very intolerant and think they are christians or doing things as chrisitans, but saying a religion that has many splinters is the most intolerable religion in all of history is very bold statement. I guess intolerance first would have to be more dissected, but then also how many ppl know a lot of all religions through the whole history of mankind, to be able to determine which was/is the most intolerant?
 
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