JFK: The Smoking Gun

[Bamspeedy]

Did I ever claim it was? Why are you so reluctant to merely see the film? How can you possibly discuss what it alleges without really knowing for yourself what it states?

And why should I see this one when I've wasted my time watching the movie JFK and not spend my time to watch the other dozens of documentaries that "prove" who shot Kennedy.

You tell me what the movie claims. We already know how laughable the smoke evidence is.

Again, you only do so if you assume the bullet exited from as low a position as possible given the damage to the skull. This is just as much an interpretation of the evidence as the film presents, which may not be "true". If you use the very same entry wound as represented in the drawing and the supposed X-ray, you can represent a completely level bullet trajectory while still remaining within the area of the missing frontal skull fragments.

Yes, you can get a level trajectory if his head is level or looking upward, which he simply was not doing. You can even get an upward trajectory if you want to believe the shot came from the front.

Again, not only is he apparently not turned far enough to the left, it also seems that his head is nowhere near down enough.

Your very own image from yet another unspecified source of what Oswald's view was probably like when he took the shot appears to contradict this interpretation. It is also clearly nowhere near the position of the president's body from the Zapruder still image immediately above, which shows him sitting upright instead of hunched over. Nor does it accurately reflect the position of the First Lady whose right arm is clearly not around his neck while seeming to pull his body down. It doesn't even accurately represent the positions of Governor Connally and his wife.

If you can find a more accurate view from the snipers nest in relation to where JFK was let me know. that view was probably pulled from a movie, I posted it to show approximately how far to the right Oswald would have been.

All my sources except that picture came from mcadams. Though he isn't the original source for everything, he is good about where he got his sources from. He is a college professor who teaches a course on the JFK assassination. Does that make him less reliable than a documentary/film maker? Or a JFK author/'historian'?

 

[Bamspeedy]

The one criticism I have on mcadams is that his site isn't well organized.


I found an argument to the 'small bullet hole'. Though it deals with the throat wound instead of the head, some of the same principles apply (size of hole doesn't necessarily show the size of the bullet).

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid5.htm

 

[Rashiminos]

I have a confession to make. When I first checked this thread, I had to double-check to make sure the date wasn't April 1st.

 

[Formaldehyde]

You tell me what the movie claims. We already know how laughable the smoke evidence is.

I already did and you keep failing to address the major premise. Again, how is it possible that a 6.5mm FMJ bullet caused an entry wound which is smaller than the diameter of the bullet in the back of his skull?

And I have no idea what you mean by "smoke evidence". Are you referring to the fact that numerous highly reputable people, and even experts, smelled gunpowder? If so, why is that "laughable" given that it is still remains an unresolved matter much like the reports that people heard and/or saw the Secret Service firing at something.

I found an argument to the 'small bullet hole'. Though it deals with the throat wound instead of the head, some of the same principles apply (size of hole doesn't necessarily show the size of the bullet).

Now that is "laughable". You do know the difference between skin and bone. Right? One is pliant and flexible allowing it to close up after an object has made a hole in it. The other isn't.

Besides, according to the very same site the entry wound was supposedly "4 to 7-millimeters in diameter".

So go right ahead. Find corroboration from a reliable source which claims that a bullet can cause a skull entry wound which is smaller in diameter than the bullet.

Yes, you can get a level trajectory if his head is level or looking upward, which he simply was not doing.

Again, you also do if the exit point was not as low as it could possibly be.

All my sources except that picture came from mcadams. Though he isn't the original source for everything, he is good about where he got his sources from. He is a college professor who teaches a course on the JFK assassination. Does that make him less reliable than a documentary/film maker? Or a JFK author/'historian'?

Only like you, McAdams apparently hasn't even seen this movie.

And someone who teaches a college course in a single assassination sounds like he is terminally obsessed about a topic which deserves perhaps an hour or two.

 

[Bamspeedy]

I already did and you keep failing to address the major premise. Again, how is it possible that a 6.5mm FMJ bullet caused an entry wound which is smaller than the diameter of the bullet in the back of his skull?

And I have no idea what you mean by "smoke evidence". Are you referring to the fact that numerous highly reputable people, and even experts, smelled gunpowder? If so, why is that "laughable" given that it is still remains an unresolved matter much like the reports that people heard and/or saw the Secret Service firing at something.

Now that is "laughable". You do know the difference between skin and bone. Right? One is pliant and flexible allowing it to close up after an object has made a hole in it. The other isn't.

Besides, according to the very same site the entry wound was supposedly "4 to 7-millimeters in diameter".

So go right ahead. Find corroboration from a reliable source which claims that a bullet can cause a skull entry wound which is smaller in diameter than the bullet.

Again, you also do if the exit point was not as low as it could possibly be.

Only like you, McAdams apparently hasn't even seen this movie.

And someone who teaches a college course in a single assassination sounds like he is terminally obsessed about a topic which deserves perhaps an hour or two.

So we are to believe because the autopsy said the hole was .5 millimeters smaller than the bullet is that proves the bullet could not have caused the hole? When it was already shown with the throat wounds how far different the measurements were (few millimeters difference between the lowest and highest numbers).

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0283b.htm

The Groden drawing and the House select committee drawing seem to be to be showing the bullet's exit and entry points at the same locations, so I don't think those are in dispute. The difference is the angle of where the view is from (one is from below and behind, the other from above and in front).

I was going to take the Zapruder still frame and illustrate the entry and exit points, but then realized we would then just argue over where those points are since it is yet another different viewpoint.

How could one shot from a modern rifle (and not a century or more old musket) produce that much smoke? Do you believe the smoke would linger on the car from where it supposedly was fired from so one could smell it as the car drove past later on? That is what is laughable.

I imagine mcadams teaches other classes as well. He's not out to sucker people for their money like a film maker is. If I remember,I'll try to watch it tonight since it's on at the time the kids go to bed.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Wait, so this 'new' movie is based on a book from 20 years ago? (Mortal Error). The Bronson film of the assassination proves Hickey was sitting at the time of the fatal shot so disproves Donohue's claims. Donohue knows this by seeing the film, but still published the claims anyway. He was sued for libel. It's only a movie now that hickey is dead and can no longer sue.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/complaint.txt

 

[Bamspeedy]

I can't believe this movie seriously used Jean Hill as a witness.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jhill.htm

The most unreliable witness, used by nearly every conspiracy theorist and book, because she had previously claimed to hear shots from the grassy knoll, now supposedly she heard shots from the secret service car........despite nobody else making that claim. The movie produced witnesses who saw Hickey with the gun and smelled smoke. The secret service agents smelled the smoke, but didn't hear the gun go off right next to them?

I don't recall the movie producing any witnesses who heard a shot come from the motorcade, just one who claimed she saw a pink spark. Out of the hundreds of witnesses, how many have claimed they heard one of the three shots came from a different location than the other two shots?

Did hickey die in 2005 or 2011?

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhickey.htm

It's hard to find other sources to verify, so Simkin can be wrong, or the movie changed the year as to not look like vultures who were waiting for him to die to realease the movie blaming the dead guy just two years later.

So let me get this straight. Donohugh drills holes in the model skull to see the trajectory and believes the shot came from ground level. Then he is told the warren commission drawing is inaccurate and the wound was higher up. Moving the wound up on the skull four inches still has him believe the shot came from ground level, but now he shifts his focus on the left to right angle?

Despite the various measurements on the neck wound the movie just simply uses 7mm for its size. Deceptive and misleading when they then use the head wounds one measurement of 6 mm to lead the viewer to believe they had to come from different bullets.

For a ballistic expert you would think he would know the two bullets would react differently. The single bullet hit most skin and muscle, perhaps grazing some bones. The head shot hit solid bone 'head on' (excuse the pun). You would think he would have something more scientific to use for his tests to represent a skull than a cantaloupe.

Bullet fragments found in the car were proven to come from Oswald's rifle. One shot was a complete miss, another shot was the single bullet that was fully recovered intact, so the bullet fragments found on the floor of the car had to have come from the head shot.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0142a.htm

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0141b.htm