JJ01-Moving up to Monarch

[Mutineer]

Yes, jeejeep, please

 

[Kikinit]

Ok.. well that applies to me too then as I played 12 and was ready to attack. I will play 3 more then post. I was just putting my report together now.

I'll be back later then with my 15 turns.

 

[Kikinit]

Spoiler :

Well these were reasonably successful turns and they ended with me taking a city from Mansa but he has learnt feudalism and has a few longbowman in his cities. They only appeared as I declared war as the photos will show, but I guess he upgraded as soon as I declared.

Turn 115 (0) (0 AD)
I started the trade game by just trading Alphabet to see how much I could get for it.
I traded alphabet for Maths and Hunting to Roosevelt.
I then traded alphabet for Masonry and Iron Working to Qin.
This didn't leave much for Mansa to give me so I took 70g and converted him to confusionism. Thought it might help out in relations for a while and better that we got something for alphabet from him than someone else traded it for another tech.
The only tech I couldn't get in this lot was horseback riding. Maybe in the next turn of trades.
Tech learned: Mathematics
Tech learned: Hunting
Tech learned: Masonry
Tech learned: Iron Working

IBT:
Qin came asking to trade Horseback Riding for code of law between turns. I turned him down for now to see if I can negotiate next turn.
Delhi finishes: Axeman
Bombay finishes: Barracks
Madras finishes: Library

Turn 116 (1) (25 AD)
I did manage to trade code of laws for horseback riding and archery to Qin, but Roosevelt is being extremely stingy and won't give me anything at all of value.
Tech learned: Horseback Riding
Tech learned: Archery
Delhi begins: Spearman
Bombay begins: Horse Archer

IBT:
Delhi finishes: Spearman
Madras grows: 4
Madras finishes: Lighthouse
Bangalore grows: 4

Turn 117 (2) (50 AD)
Delhi begins: Axeman
Madras begins: Barracks

IBT:
Mansa came along requesting civil service now. That one is a no as I don't want him to get macemen for a while yet.
Madras's borders expand
Calcutta grows: 2

Turn 118 (3) (75 AD)


IBT:
Delhi finishes: Axeman
Bombay grows: 7
Bangalore grows: 5

Turn 119 (4) (100 AD)
Delhi begins: Axeman

IBT:
Great Lighthouse is BIFAL. Gave me a fright for a moment as I thought it was the Great Library as we just learnt literature
Tech learned: Literature
Delhi finishes: Axeman
Madras grows: 5
Bangalore grows: 6
Calcutta grows: 3

Turn 120 (5) (125 AD)
Research begun: Music <-- Now this may well be completely but I picked it because the AI has researched a lot of other techs that we want and I was hoping that this may be good for trading to pick up a couple of techs. It also gives an artist to the first to complete.
Delhi begins: The Great Library - due in (10). Marble will be connected in 2 and it will half the time taken. After selecting that, I decided that I would rush out one more axe first and then do the libary as marble gets connected.
Delhi begins: Axeman <- Due in (1)
Delhi begins: The Great Library <- Queued.

IBT:
Delhi finishes: Axeman

Turn 121 (6) (150 AD)
Delhi starts on The Great Library now. Due in 6 now.
At this point, I needed to drop research to 70% (from 100%) as we have run out of gold. We are +5gpt at 70%.

IBT:
Bombay grows: 8
Bombay finishes: Horse Archer
Bangalore grows: 7

Turn 122 (7) (175 AD)
Bombay begins: Axeman

IBT:
Bangalore finishes: Barracks
Calcutta grows: 4

Turn 123 (8) (200 AD)
I decided that I should check the trades again. Must remember to do this as soon as new techs come in and not a few shots later. Can easily miss opportunities doing that. Roosevelt wouldn't give up much, but I decided to give him monarchy and literature for mathematics so we can start getting some catapults for the war we are about to have with Mansa.
Tech learned: Construction
Bangalore begins: Lighthouse

IBT:
Bangalore grows: 6

Turn 124 (9) (225 AD)


IBT:
Madras grows: 6

Turn 125 (10) (250 AD)


IBT:
Bombay finishes: Axeman
Bangalore grows: 7
Calcutta grows: 5
Confucianism has spread: Beijing (Chinese Empire) <-- This is interesting as I notice later that Qin converted to confucianism and that means that both Roosevelt and Qin are confused.

Turn 126 (11) (275 AD)
Bombay begins: Axeman

IBT:
Delhi finishes: The Great Library <-- Woohoo.. two free scientists in delhi now.

Bangalore finishes: Lighthouse

Turn 127 (12) (300 AD)
Delhi begins: Axeman <-- Back to an axeman a turn.
Bangalore begins: Library
Horse Archer promoted: Combat I

I had chosen this stage to stop as it seemed about the right place. Great library had come in and we were all prepared for war. Here's the forces on the border with Mansa.

We had a Horse Archer, 7 Axemen, a chariot and a spearman on the border ready to roll with 3 more axemen and another chariot on their way to the front. Seemed about right for me considering what we were up against.

Our kingdom at this stage looked like this.

On returning to the forum however, I noticed the message from Mutineer to do 15 and I recall that he had said that earlier . So back to the game for a couple more.

See the next message as I've got too many pics and smilies to post in one.

 

[Kikinit]

Part 2:

Spoiler :

Ok. So as I thought we are ready, here goes. I demand a tech from Mansa to see what happens and he says no. Hmm. Well take this then.. WAR!!

As soon as I declared, I stepped our brave warriors over the border and noticed that Mansa now has a longbowman and two skirmishers.

IBT:
Delhi finishes: Axeman
Bombay grows: 9
Madras finishes: Barracks

Turn 128 (13) (325 AD)
Spearman promoted: Woodsman I <-- To protect the main force in the jungle outside Djenne.
Axeman promoted: Woodsman I <-- As above. One axeman to act as a stronger defender.
Delhi begins: Catapult
Madras begins: Catapult
The catapults are going to be too late for the first city, but they can follow up for subequent ones.
Bombay begins: Aqueduct

IBT:
Delhi finishes: Catapult
Bangalore grows: 8
Calcutta grows: 6

Turn 129 (14) (350 AD)
The battle of Djenne.
This not going to go as smooth as I had hoped now that Mansa has longbowmen. Luckily there is only one and I have enough to still take this city.
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
Horse Archer loses to: Malinese Longbowman (4.08/6) The odds were 9.9% but were the best I had.
Axeman loses to: Malinese Skirmisher (2.72/4) - Odds of 7.7%!
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
Axeman loses to: Malinese Longbowman (4.08/6) - Odds of 21.5%. Getting better but he caused 0 damage! The longbowman was 4.08 to start and was still 4.08 at the end.. bugger.
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
Axeman loses to: Malinese Longbowman (0.48/6) - Odds of 21.5%. Uh-oh.. not going so well here.
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
Axeman defeats (0.40/5): Malinese Skirmisher - Odds of 42.7% and we finally get one.
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
Axeman defeats (4.20/5): Malinese Spearman - Odds now 91.1%!! Now we are talking.
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
Axeman defeats (5.00/5): Malinese Longbowman - Woohoo.
Buddhism has spread: Djenne
Captured Djenne (Mansa Musa)
Ok, so I lost 1 horse archer and 3 axes, but I got it in the end.

And of course I kept it as it's perfectly located to protect our empire on the peninsula.
Delhi begins: Catapult

IBT:
Bombay finishes: Aqueduct
Madras grows: 6
Confucianism has spread: Hangzhou (Chinese Empire)

Turn 130 (15) (375 AD)

I think the next target would be Mansa's capital. It's not that heavily protected and with a few catapults suiciding themselves, we should be able to cripple Mansa. If you look at the info screen below, you can see that Mansa's production is quite weak and he won't be finishing too many skirmishers or longbowman each turn, so if we can get our forces together fast enough we may pull it off.

I started a worker connecting Djenne up to help get the reinforcements to the front as quickly as possible.

A late trade of fish to Roosevelt for his bananas was also made. As mentioned earlier, both Qin and Roosevelt are confused now.

The power graph is here.

And the info screen.

My opinion of these turns are that they are ok, but we may be a little bit thinly stretched. If someone else has managed to avoid my losses then they may be a stronger game to continue. We'll see once everyone has posted.

View attachment 122751

 

[Mutineer]

Well I probably will not be able to log later on, so I put my save now.
Try to play your first and look later.

Spoiler :

First, tech trade. It is not allwasy the best idea to trade as soon as posible.
I want to delay Musta to get to Feodalism as long as posible, so, I choise to delay trade untill I really need Masonry.

Now army building and cities.
I destignated our Capital and city N4 and 5 as our military city.
why? Because our capital can produce axe/turn and city N4 and 5 are new and near front. So, trops do not need to travel 10 turns untill they rich front.

So, I keep axe production on untill.
One turn befor literature finished I did my trade.

Situation at that point was:
Masta researched Col himself.
Quin(I think) researched alphavit himself (that what actially promp me to trade).
Quin had monarchy and researched feodalism.

Strategy of trading was, trade with out civs but in such way to they do not want to trade Monarchy with Masta, actially not only monerchy, but everything else.
Sorry, forgot to keep notes about exec sequence of trade, but idea is to give other cives Col and Masta had so they do not want to trade Col or theology for monarchy with Masta.
Trades took 2 steps at the end of which I had all low tech, Monotheism, Mathematic and construsruction.
Second step was done only after most of my military was ready to attack.
At that moment I traded Monarchy+ for constraction to Masta and started whiped cats.

So, I started to work marble with 2 workers and 2 turns (I think) later It was finished.
I switched to Orgonised religion, start GL.
Finished GL started
forge and stick 1 (at the moment second) unit to combat unhappiness.

City N2-3 were working as sci cities. They allredy whiped there minimum nessesary buildings which are granary and library.
so, I use there food and regulate there grow with Sci specialists.
Sci specialists bring 3 beakers which is better then 2 commerce from the cost.

so, by switching ties and hiring specialists I slow there grow to the level or as abtaining happiness resources and whipping unhappiness dissipitating.
That greatly speed up our research.

City 3 and 4 worked as Military whipping factory.

using 2 population whipes to produce mainly cats. I stick chariot there in order to get medic and it is cheaper. easier to do second after cat whipe.
(Cat is 40 shields and cities have little shields avalible).

the moment I got first cat out I moved to declare and attack.

So, My stack was consisted with 9?axes 3 chariots and 1 cat.
It was facing 3 skirmishers+1spearman (darn darn, prevented me from using cyicide chariots) + 1 axe.

Cat was promoted for collateral damage and die.
Bunch of axes dies killing 2 skirmishers 1 axe 1 spear and only 0.8 strength scirmisher left. So, I promoted chariot to combut 1 and took city.
Next turn this chariot become medic and now sitting in the city and curing axes.

combat group went with one cat to start bombart befor more cats and axes arrived and promoted axes healed.



Research I choise:

literature -Metalloworking-Music.

I was debating between Music and mettaloworking and Metalloworking won. Main reason that I afraid we would need more production power to finish war with Masta.
2 cats stand to be whiped next turn and I hope this would be enogth to take his capital and make temporal peace and get something from him.

After that we would need more cats to finish him off, how fast dependson how big cultural pressure will be.

I hope to get free artist from Music and use it to quicly discover Dramma, as we need cultural slider for happiness.
Last turn I got currency for Mettaloworking (we did not had monopoly).

As far as I can see, AI did not make single trade between themself as result of my trade strategy.

So, you can see in pictures current situation and save is provided.

 

[jeejeep]

Next four turns

Spoiler :

I took Djenne with a loss of two axemen. Mansa has feudalism, but I think we can still take Timbuktu if we wait for catapults to get there. I also think we now have some good trade oppurtunities with Roosevelt and Qin.

View attachment 122775 View attachment 122776

View attachment 122777

 

[TomPW]

I'm going to play my turns tonight guys (should be posted in about 7 hours).

Tom

 

[Bigfoot]

Sorry, but RL intervened and I don't have anything to post yet. I will not get to play until tomorrow, at the earliest. If that is too late for the concurrent turn format then skip me. I apologize for the delay.

Mutineer, would you mind positng the link that describes how to create 2 pop axes? I need to review that technique before playing my turns.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Mutineer]

That Bobrat translation of my broken English.
My understanding of Mutineer's Axe producing tactic:

:
So, I start whipping axes. Secret to that is to do 2 population whipes, which let one to produce 2 axes every 3 turns.
Axe cost 35 hammers. Whiping 1 pop give 30 hammers. Whipping thinks the same turn as starting carry penalty, so you should not do that.
So turn one, produce 4 hammers to Axe (manipulate working ties not to produce any more).
Turn 2, do double whipe, giving you additional 60 hammers + 2 hummers from city) 4+60+2 = 66.
Deli drop to size 2, with population work only food ties.
When turn 2 finsihed, 35 of this went to produce Axe, 31 left in overflow.
Turn 3, Use 31 overflow + 4 natural hammers, turn finished - 1 more Axe.
Depends, this or next turn Deli will grow to size 4.
That let as to produce 2 axes every 3 turns untill deli would not have 4 productive person (suplus happiness fall below 4)

So In the first turn you are producing an axe you only allow 4 hammer to go into it. (you're getting past the penalty for whipping a unit/building in the first turn). Then because whipping produces 30 hammers and an axe costs 35, you can double pop whip. So total hammers in the axe is 66 (see above). So you overflow into the next unit (another axe) and can use natural city production to finish the second axeman in the third turn.

The limitation on this is happieness (and of course population). It does allow you to maximize your whipping hammer production.


-----------------------------------------
That does not allways work this perfectly, because of avalible ties, but main thin to remember is that if you whipe 2 population at one's you pay 1 happiness for 60 shield.

 

[Mutineer]

Hmm.. the rest of folk seems to be very late, what should we do folk?

Personally I think we should do next 15 turns concurently, because there again lots of decisions and tactics about taking Masta capital, Making temporal peace and Magaging our empire the most efficient way.
What do you think forl? It that case folk who miss this turns could try again.

 

[Kikinit]

Mutineer. It's ok to do concurrent again, but we should play from a common save. That means we should pick who's we like the best. Tom said he was going to post, but he seems to have got caught up in RL.

I was trying to choose between JJ's save and Mutineer's but I would go for Mutineer's due the the fact that Mansa doesn't yet have Feudalism giving us a better shot at the capital. Close call though.

 

[Mutineer]

There very big difference.
First, I prevented all AI-AI trade.
If you look carefully, you will see that in My safe only Masta has Theology.
In everyone else save Masta traded Theology for Monarchy and probably alphavit, this springing it to Feodalism.

Second difference is rate of research.
My rate of research about 40% higher. I allready have Mettalocasting, when JeeJeep still need a few turns.
In addition, I traded all tech he did + Monotheism, currency and something else?

thurd, planing.

If you look at my save you will see road allready connected to Masta city I just took. That is because I build this road when I still have open border with Masta, befor declaration. (you can build roads if you have open border agreement).


OK, Every one, Take my save and play 15 turns concurently.

 

[rddc05]

As far as playing the current turnset, my computer is fixed but I've seen the spoilers. If I were to vote right now I would probably go with Mutineer's save for the reasons outlined already. One interesting point about Kikinit's save though: Qin has converted to Confucianism. Once Mansa is gone, that would probably give us about a 40-50 turn window of safety in which to really expand and get our economy going. Overall, though Mutineer's is the best situation, so I would have to place my vote there.

I'm ready to play the next set if concurrent is the way we're going.

 

[TomPW]

Sorry guys - I'm going to have to take a skip on this turnset (both concurrent ones). We have some people coming to look at the house, so we're spending the whole day tidying up.

Sorry again - I'll keep checking back. I too agree that Muntineer's save is the one to go from.

Tom

 

[Bigfoot]

I don't know if this is too late, but here are my turns from 1AD. I wound up playing 17. Once Djenne fell my blood was up and I went on to take the capital.

Pre-turn:

Run-up to war with Mansa. Reviewing techs it looks like Qin has Priesthood and Writing, Mansa has Priesthood, COL, Writing and Theology, and Roosv. has Priesthood or Mono., and Writing. Nobody has Alpha. yet, but I want to wait trading until I am ready to invade because I am afraid Mansa will get Longbows and / or cats which will make the axeman rush a problem. So no trades yet.

<IBT: Delhi axe => axe; Bombay rax => axe.>

T1:
- Our axes are headed to the border. We have a total of 6, I would like to hit him with 12 for the invasion.

<IBT: Mansa demands Civil Svc (decline) ; Delhi axe => axe; Madras lighthouse => CH.>

T2:
- Whip axe in Bomaby, queue up another.
- Whip rax in Bangalore => axe.

<IBT: Delhi axe => axe.>

T3:
- Workers building a road to Djenne.

<IBT: Qin offers Math for Alpha (decline for now; I don't want him trading it around until I can deal with everyone else too).>

T4:
- Exploring warrior off our galley lands on hill but next to a barb. warrior.
- Whip CH in Madras.
- Whip axe in Babgalore => axe.

<IBT: Our warrior defeats barb. warrior; Delhi axe => axe; Madras CH => Monastery.>

T5:
- Road to Djenne completed, start moving workers back to improve road net and to be ready to quarry the marble once we start the GL.
- Have 12 axes now, but they are still moving to the border.
- Qin knows Feudalism now , so no Alpha for him.

<IBT: Delhi axe => axe; Bombay axe => axe.>

T6:
- Mansa learned Alpha.
- Qin wants Civil Svc, learned Monarchy?

<IBT: Literature => Metal Casting (I want forges and also to build Colossus in Bombay, if possible. It also gets us closer to Machinery and maces); Delhi axe => GL.>

T7:
- Not ready to attack yet, but I am afraid Mansa might trade Alpha away. Make a deal with Roos. Alpha & Monarch for Masonry, Maths and Iron Working.
- Nobody knows Currency or Constr. yet.

<IBT: >

T8:
- Whip axe in Bangalore => axe.

T9:
- Whip monastery in Madras => workboat.
- Whip rax in Calcutta => axe.
- Mansa knows Monarchy now, also Constr., Currency and Calendar (but not Feudalism!). Roos. knows Constr., Claendar and Currency, and Qin knows Constr. Hmm, maybe another civ made contact and started trading techs around?

T10:
- Whip axe in Bombay => axe.
- Whip axe in Bangalore => axe.

<IBT: Bombay axe => axe.>

T11:
- Whip workboat in Madras.

<IBT: Bombay axe => CH; Madras workboat => missionary.>

T12:
- Forces are now in place for the attack on Mansa, but the only thnig I can offer in trade is Civil Svc (nope!).
- Trade Qin COL for HBR (both Roos. and Mansa know COL already).
- Declare war on Mansa!
- Whip axe in Bangalore => temple.

T13:
- Trade Roos. Lit. for Mono and Hunting (the GL will be done in 1 turn anyway).

<IBT: Delhi builds GL => National Epic.>

T14:
- Assault on Djenne (defended by 1 spear and 2 skirmishers). Luck is with us and it falls with the loss of just 3 axes. Keep the city..
- Whip temple in Bangalore.
- Whip axe in Calcutta.
- Whip missionary in Madras.

<IBT: Madras missionary => missionary; Bangalore temple => CH.>

T15:
- Moving on Timbuktu.
- Trade Roos. fish for spices.
- Whip CH in Bombay.

<IBT: Bombay CH => axe.>

T16:
- SOD is by Timbuktu, defended by 1 spear and 2 skirmishers (but on a hill with 60% culture). Could be close.

T17:
- Attack on Timbuktu goes well, we capture it with loss of only 4 axes.
- Whip CH in Bangalore.
- Whip axe in Calcutta.

So those are my turns, warts and all. We should be able to take Mansa's last city with the axes still on hand. I would hold off trading with Qin and Roos. until the last city is ours.

 

[rddc05]

Well, I played around 9 turns from Mutineer's 375 AD save. Looking at Bigfoot's save, the capture of Timbuktu is impressive, but we are missing at least construction and Metal Casting as compared to Mutineer's. If we are all agreed that that is the save we want to use, I will post some screens and status from my turn set.

 

[TomPW]

Now that Bigfoot has taken the capital - that would be the save I would go with. If we DO decide that, then obviously it'll set us back a bit time wise, and I could play tommorow.

Tom

 

[Kikinit]

Nice turns bigfoot. Now that has thrown a spanner in the works!

I agree with rddc that we should go for Mutineer's save though as we are only a few shots from taking the capital there and the extra techs mean so much to us. He's got some catapults coming behind too (IIRC).

I did learn one more thing from this round that's for sure. I am way to gungho on trading and must be MUCH more thoughtful about the repercusions of it all.

If we do go with Mutineer's save you'll get to take the capital again bigfoot.

 

[Mutineer]

I waik up and had a quick look on BigFoot save befor work.
I have to admit that he did a good job.
Still, he boorrowed deeply in our future in all cities exept capital, that why his research rate suffered. He did not switch to orgonised religion, which would let him speed up library.
He did not create any healers, which stuck his army sitting healing for a long time.
He did do tech trade more careffully, which would be +.

About tech trade. When you trade you need to think not only about which traded you can make, but what traded AI can make between themself.

On a side note, how all of you getting so Lucky?

I lost 1 cat + 4 axes taking first city facing 2 skirmisher, 1 spear+1 axe.
and first cyicide cat did good collateral damage.

Take capital on hill + 60% cultural defence bonus with so low losses and with out bombardment...

I allredy played My safe yestarday, as I am bisy today, but I probably will have time to post.

Please, do not consider my criticism or me choising my own save as offence.
I am trying to help you to learn and to demonstrate consiquences of different actions. I am plaing game the same way as you, with our using any cheat spoilers and plaing only one's set of turns.
If it look like I know a future, it is just because I can predict it based on existing information what will be happening and probably mistakes you will make. I reallly put a lot of time into that and I hope I would be help.

 

[Kikinit]

Mutineer, as far as I am concerned, please keep up the criticism. As long at it's constructive we will only learn from it. So far your instructions have been extremely valuable to me improving my game and I thank you for the time you put into it. Cheers!