Jordan Peterson

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The difference is that Peterson is a polite and reasonable person with whom a straightforward discussion is actually possible. I don't know whether he would simply evade and deflect or whether he'd try to address the main point of the argument, but I've watched him enough to believe he's the type of person who is interested in having real conversations. He's decidedly not the talking head type.

The culture wars he's inserted himself into are so coarse and low-resolution that I've never seen him in a discussion with someone who gets at the actual issues with his arguments, pointing out each of several specific strawmen and discussing them in depth. He's given a number of long interviews, but it appears they've all been with either sympathetic interviewers (e.g. Dave Rubin), hostile interviewers who set up their own army of strawmen to oppose his (infamous example), or interviewers who are trying to play neutral too much to ask hard questions.

One can be polite and be a BSer. In fact the brilliant Sarah Kendzior has argued that being polite and well-mannered serves that end extraordinarily well. We're used to blowhardy and loudmouthed liars and squirrels. We can spot them a mile away. But the calm liar is granted far more trust. People are loathe to see the person who appears calm, reasonable, and intelligent as anything other than those things.

I'll put it this way - if you've consumed hours of content one has created, and you don't know their stance on a fairly basic question of the thing they're generally known for talking about, that is a sign that the person is up to something, is not being straight with the audience for a reason. And the reason is most certainly not to the audience's benefit.
 
One can be polite and be a BSer. In fact the brilliant Sarah Kendzior has argued that being polite and well-mannered serves that end extraordinarily well. We're used to blowhardy and loudmouthed liars and squirrels. We can spot them a mile away. But the calm liar is granted far more trust. People are loathe to see the person who appears calm, reasonable, and intelligent as anything other than those things.

And that's not even getting into the fact that these qualities are highly gendered in the way they're applied to people...
 
Does he view this as a problem, or is this just a "well, that's the way it is because nature" argument? I think many feminists are generally understanding that it may indeed be good science that shows personality traits differ across the broad population of humans as between the sexes. The feminist response to this, from what I've read, is that this necessitates a rethinking of the entire structure of professional workplaces, so that "male" traits aren't the ones which give one access to promotions and higher pay.
To which I see no other possible response, but "you're welcome to go ahead and figure out how".
 
Promoting women to positions of power would be a great start.

Guarantee raises for competency, and make them automatic. Have management initiate conversations about additional pay increases. Be more open about employee salaries, and what is expected of employees to earn pay increases. Encourage female and minority leadership.

There are tons of things companies can actively do, I don't know why you're asking a question whose rhetorical purpose is to make that seem difficult. It's not, really.
 
That sounds like standard union fare?
 
Except for the whole "women in leadership positions" thing, yeah pretty much.
 
Well, seeing as leadership tends to be the higher pay, isn't this "do the goal," here are some methods, which frankly I don't much disagree with, but they're standard union fare? So it's unions with female affirmative action? Or hiring/advancement preference, or whatever we want to call it. Not trying to be political regarding people's bugaboos with the terminology.
 
What parts of feminist theory again? Sorry if I'm asking you to repeat. Having blasted through that godawful interview I'm mostly zeroed in on the hostility towards Equality of Outcome(loosely). This is interesting to me as a man who's been in pink collar for the last dozen years.

I can't really answer - I know just enough about feminist theory to know Peterson is misrepresenting it, without knowing enough to know what the details are.

The thing about equality of outcome vs. equality of opportunity is mostly a canard. Extremely disparate outcomes make opportunity for the next generation distribute highly unequally, and obviously many things having little to do with "merit" as normally defined play a major role in outcome. He sets up a strawman when he says that leftists want entirely identical outcomes. Most Western leftists simply want far lower inequality than today; basically a large reduction in the Gini coefficient - but not all the way to 0.

But Peterson's "sorting yourself out" amounts to an assertion of traditional, even patriarchal masculinity, under the assumption that this is something which is both necessary and which contemporary norms are failing ("failing") to instill in young men. The methods may be those of gradual, individualistic self-improvement, but they're drawn up within a framework of culture-war.

At the very least, that is how Peterson himself has chosen to locate those methods with his public and social media presence, and how they will inevitably be interpreted as a result. Perhaps if book was discovered by somebody with no further exposure to Peterson or to Peterson enthusiasts, they may take it all at face value, as an instruction to sit up straight and eat their greens- but by that token, Animal Farm is just a story about talking pigs.

No major argument with you there. Peterson does push for masculinity in a way that is more nuanced than the usual chest-thumping approach, but he certainly is still leading a defense of a concept that is causing major problems.

I just think that arguing that Peterson for men blaming the world for their problems is similar to blaming Chomsky if someone becomes a Stalinist. It's perfectly possible to take his passages critical of capitalism, ignore his explicit condemnation of Soviet-style communism in general and Stalin in particular, and use him as an inspiration to become a Stalinist. A person would be on firmer ground than I believe you are here by blaming Chomsky for inspiring the Venezuelan government to wreck the country - he not only inspired some of Chavez's thinking but was supportive of his government throughout the 2000s. That's the sort of argument Peterson would make against leftism, and I think it's specious.

One can be polite and be a BSer. In fact the brilliant Sarah Kendzior has argued that being polite and well-mannered serves that end extraordinarily well. We're used to blowhardy and loudmouthed liars and squirrels. We can spot them a mile away. But the calm liar is granted far more trust. People are loathe to see the person who appears calm, reasonable, and intelligent as anything other than those things.

I'll put it this way - if you've consumed hours of content one has created, and you don't know their stance on a fairly basic question of the thing they're generally known for talking about, that is a sign that the person is up to something, is not being straight with the audience for a reason. And the reason is most certainly not to the audience's benefit.

About politeness - certainly true. To give the worst case of this I know of, Jared Taylor is a very polite and civil white nationalist whose discussions usually go about the way they do in this awesome Contrapoints video. Politeness is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a good discussion. My estimate of the odds that a discussion can even happen with Peterson in which he is forced to admit his ignorance of real opposing arguments are higher than they are for the vast majority of people who take sides on any culture war issue, but I'm not going to say they're high.

I think "squirrelly" was not the right word to describe his question-answering behavior. He doesn't appear to evade giving straight answers to hard questions at all - rather he seems to really believe that his own strawmen are accurate, and no discussion I've seen with him got into the details enough to show how he's misrepresenting leftist arguments. I'm virtually certain he would at least try to give non-evasive answers if someone did this. I've also never seen a discussion where someone tried to figure out to what extent he thinks that gender differences in outcomes (e.g. the wage gap or male-female ratios in various fields) are down to inherent biological differences vs. social conditions, or how far we should go towards inducing societies to be more equal than they currently are, and so on.
 
Well, seeing as leadership tends to be the higher pay, isn't this "do the goal," here are some methods, which frankly I don't much disagree with, but they're standard union fare? So it's unions with female affirmative action? Or hiring/advancement preference, or whatever we want to call it. Not trying to be political regarding people's bugaboos with the terminology.

Yes, but I dont necessarily consider that the only, or best, method to attain better equality between genders in the workplace. I was merely putting it out there as one way which you could structure a workplace to make it less rewarding of the "assertive" employees. In response to a post basically saying we should throw up our hands because you can't possibly structure a workplace that doesn't disproportionately reward "male" behavior.
 
Well, increasing bureaucratic controls delegating authority and awarding pay more strictly along the lines of seniority would probably do that, yes.

Boots, so if I understand correctly, your primary criticism would be that he's gone a bit too youtube in the tone and discourse? I can see that. Stuff that gets talked about online has different, and much lower standards than I remember. I dunno, has he simply embraced the zeitgeist there? Heheh!
 
I think this images captures what Jordan Peterson is doing very well: he is simply repackaging the trivial truths to men who never listened to their parents and now feel lost and purposeless.

FWwjEVK.jpg
 
I think that Peterson is to psychology what Dawkins is to philosophy: a trivial thinker, with base and crude thematology, and ultimately a fad.
Although it is even worse in Peterson's case, cause his own academic field is psychology...
 
I think that Peterson is to psychology what Dawkins is to philosophy: a trivial thinker, with base and crude thematology, and ultimately a fad.
Although it is even worse in Peterson's case, cause his own academic field is psychology...

Kind of a strange analogy. Dawkins made real contributions to evolutionary biology, and iirc his position is that philosophy is basically useless, having been superseded by "science".
 
Boots, so if I understand correctly, your primary criticism would be that he's gone a bit too youtube in the tone and discourse? I can see that. Stuff that gets talked about online has different, and much lower standards than I remember. I dunno, has he simply embraced the zeitgeist there? Heheh!
Yeah, he's drifted a bit to the youtube side since he first came to public attention. But the main issue I have is that he has an overly simplistic idea of what the left is and what they are arguing. He also uses the worst left-wingers as representative of the whole left. Then again, the identity-focused left has done a great job of obliging him with its own baseless attacks (most popularly lumping him in with the alt-right and calling him a white nationalist or Nazi sympathizer) and attempts to suppress content that go way beyond making sure that nobody is creating a hostile environment for minority groups. All of this on both sides is too outrage culture-ish to actually get down to the real disagreements; instead they both caricature and talk past each other without understanding what the other side has to say. Mounting a tiny little action against this sort of thing is basically why I'm bothering to halfway-defend Peterson here.

So yeah, when the culture gets too youtubey, nobody understands each other or even wants to, orange people become president, and everybody loses. The zeitgeist indeed!
 
Kind of a strange analogy. Dawkins made real contributions to evolutionary biology, and iirc his position is that philosophy is basically useless, having been superseded by "science".

I mean his use of very basic (ie laughable) philosophical "arguments" re his atheism :)
The point is that at least Dawkins is a good biologist.

Btw, if that is his position re philosophy, it only shows again that he isn't familiar with what the term means. First of all, science was part of the progression of philosophy. The other two parts being math and metaphysics (study of notions, more or less)
 
Yes, but I dont necessarily consider that the only, or best, method to attain better equality between genders in the workplace. I was merely putting it out there as one way which you could structure a workplace to make it less rewarding of the "assertive" employees. In response to a post basically saying we should throw up our hands because you can't possibly structure a workplace that doesn't disproportionately reward "male" behavior.

When X behavior gets better results than Y behavior, why are we encouraging people to reward Y behavior rather than teaching people who are not exhibiting X behavior to do X?

This is particularly true if we don't have a good reason to believe all people can't learn to do X. We're not talking about power-cleaning 300+ pounds here.
 
(most popularly lumping him in with the alt-right

He lumps himself in with the alt-right by marketing himself in a way that deliberately appeals to the alt-right.

Btw, if that is his position re philosophy, it only shows again that he isn't familiar with what the term means. First of all, science was part of the progression of philosophy. The other two parts being math and metaphysics (study of notions, more or less)

I know, buddy. You'd think anyone over the age of 15 would have long ago abandoned naive logical positivism but...
 
He lumps himself in with the alt-right by marketing himself in a way that deliberately appeals to the alt-right.



I know, buddy. You'd think anyone over the age of 15 would have long ago abandoned naive logical positivism but...

Hey! This isn't the Sopranos. Show some respect for people's university studies :P ^_^
 
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