Jordan Peterson

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In a practical manner, due to the pronouns being so new and (afaik) not entirely set either, it can create issues if it is tied to law. Involuntary mistakes included, but also lack of awareness by some in the faculty. Isn't this realistic?

Sure, and that's why these laws/rules don't police specific terminology. It's more of a "if someone tells you you're referring to them incorrectly, you should switch to referring to them correctly" regulation which seems fair. The same is expected of skin colour, of sex, of religion, etc. Gender identity is certainly 'new', and I myself don't 'get it', but I think it's fair that I shouldn't be allowed to invalidate someone's identity once I know of it in a formal setting.
 
I see a contradiction between the two bolded statements there. Unless the second one is a normative statement, ie, how you think things should. Because as your first bolded statement says clearly, you do understand how there is a component to the definition of "man" that doesn't involve the xy chromosome.

Right, I take your point. My second one was normative, for the most part, but I guess I don't think there is a problem with the association of XY chromosomes and penises specifically, because we know those are non-culturally related. Just like whatever genes lead to blue eyes, associating those two isn't a problem in my view, it would be associating the blue eyes or the genetics with some sort of stereotype.

I think when we do serious conceptual analysis we always run into problems. What does it mean to be an orange vs a tangerine? An orange is more spherical, but does that mean an oddly shaped orange isn't an orange? Oranges have thicker skin, tangerines have thinner skin, does that mean if an orange has thinner skin it is a tangerine? I see the point here, but I still think Oranges and Tangerines are valid categories, they just breakdown a bit when you look at them really close, but if you stick to genetics it seems to hold up the best. If you want to say Orange to Tangerine is a spectrum I don't have any issue with that. If you say a fruit on this spectrum can choose to be off the spectrum, it's not just that I can't wrap my head around that, I also think you don't know what you are talking about.

I don't have anything to add except that this is exactly what trans-inclusive feminism wants to do. And this bill (that Peterson has misrepresented in ways calculated to be attractive to the alt-right) is, in my judgment, a step on the path toward this goal.

I don't think so. I see a problem when someone says they are a women even though they have XY chromosome, and a penis. Or when someone says they have some kind of essence of a women, or that they were born a women, even though they are XY chromosome with a penis. There is no essence of a women outside of the basic genetics and resulting genitalia. At that point they are necessarily attaching harmful stereotypes and baggage onto what it means to be a women, so I oppose it.

See, I find this line of reasoning to be very problematic. I don't think I really understand what it's like or what it means to be non-binary either, but if you genuinely do think that, as you put, "you should be able to act in any way you want, you can like whatever you want," then it seems a contradiction for you to oppose legal protections for nonbinary people on the basis of their gender identity/expression, simply because you can't wrap your head around what it means. I will add that there are plenty of resources available online that explain this stuff. There are even places where you can (respectfully) ask nonbinary people themselves some of these questions, though that may require some time investment to earn trust.

I oppose the specific policy even though I think I share the same values that you have. As I said, it isn't simply that I can't wrap my head around itt, I think the reason I can't make sense of it is because it is inherently contradictory. If it is valid to say you are a women, then it must be the case that the concept of a women is valid. Being a women can't both mean something and be an invalid concept. You don't get both.

In the context of my last post, yes. I see no reason why people who are knowingly and intentionally rude should not have their actions stopped, abruptly.

I think that is barbaric, backwards, and disgusting. I'm extremely grateful that societies have moved on from this instinct and are able to resolve difference with dialog other than violence. I think you have no idea what you are actually advocating, or what a society where disagreements lead to violence as the norm would look like.
 
If you think we live in a society of dialogue and not violence then you are sorely mistaken
 
I think that is barbaric, backwards, and disgusting. I'm extremely grateful that societies have moved on from this instinct and are able to resolve difference with dialog other than violence. I think you have no idea what you are actually advocating, or what a society where disagreements lead to violence as the norm would look like.

I have a very good idea what they look like. There's a reason that the only place in America that common courtesy is common is in prison, and that reason is that lack of courtesy there has immediate consequences.
 
I think when we do serious conceptual analysis we always run into problems.

Recalling that all concepts are merely frames of interpretation is always useful. Privileged access to reality, unfiltered by frames of interpretation, is impossible.

I don't think so. I see a problem when someone says they are a women even though they have XY chromosome, and a penis. Or when someone says they have some kind of essence of a women, or that they were born a women, even though they are XY chromosome with a penis. There is no essence of a women outside of the basic genetics and resulting genitalia. At that point they are necessarily attaching harmful stereotypes and baggage onto what it means to be a women, so I oppose it.

There is no 'essence' of anything, though. Essentialism is a fundamentally flawed philosophical approach. My comment above segues into this perfectly.

I'm not sure what, exactly, you are 'opposing' here. Are you saying that people whose gender identity does not conform to their assigned gender do not exist? I'm confused.

I oppose the specific policy even though I think I share the same values that you have. As I said, it isn't simply that I can't wrap my head around, I think the reason I can't make sense of it is because it is inherently contradictory. If it is valid to say you are a women, then it must be the case that the concept of a women is valid. Being a women can't both mean something and be an invalid concept. You don't get both.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here either. Are you saying you are aware of nonbinary people claiming they are women? I think maybe quoting some examples of what you're talking about, so we have something specific to go off, might be helpful. Keep in mind there is more than one sense in which people might use the word "woman."
 
If you think we live in a society of violence you are historically clueless.

A few posts ago you were bemoaning the society of violence that people who act like you are responsible for having created. The desire to be protected from immediate consequences while being an openly and intentionally rude sphincter is what has led to the necessity for the ultimate violence of the state to be drawn into an issue of petty name calling.
 
There is no 'essence' of anything, though. Essentialism is a fundamentally flawed philosophical approach. My comment above segues into this perfectly.

I'm not sure what, exactly, you are 'opposing' here. Are you saying that people whose gender identity does not conform to their assigned gender do not exist? I'm confused.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here either. Are you saying you are aware of nonbinary people claiming they are women? I think maybe quoting some examples of what you're talking about, so we have something specific to go off, might be helpful. Keep in mind there is more than one sense in which people might use the word "woman."

My opposition is only with regard to this definition of gender identity, which is trying to accommodate and endorse all these contradictory view of gender sententiously. You can be a man, or a woman, or both, or neither, or on or off the spectrum. All these different ideas of gender are contracting themselves.

Regarding trans-gender people, you obviously have a large and diverse group all with different ideas about gender. Caitlyn Jenner, for example, says she has the soul of a women. That is assumes not only that souls exist, but that they have a gender. When she says she is a women, what she seems to mean is that she likes wearing dressing and doing women things. To me, she is endorsing harmful stereotypes about what it means to be a women. From what I have seen many trans-gender people who are biologically one sex, say they feel like they were given the wrong gender, or they were born the wrong gender, right? Most often it is switching to the other gender. My old friend from high-school who is trans-gender and now calls herself a women, she grew long hair and started wearing dresses and talking in a higher pitched voice and shopping with her girlfriends. I believe this is the common case, and it seems to be endorsing a lot of stereotypes about women.
 
The terribly impoverished and violent conditions the average person historically had to live in, basically across all cultures.

You live in a house with a hole in the roof where snow and rain fall through, pipes that leak feces out of the walls constantly, an inch of sewer water on every floor, and light fixtures that electrocute you if you try to use the switch. You call your landlord and he fixes the hole in the roof. Do you now live in an ideal house?
 
Regarding trans-gender people, you obviously have a large and diverse group all with different ideas about gender. Caitlyn Jenner, for example, says she has the soul of a women. That is assumes not only that souls exist, but that they have a gender. When she says she is a women, what she seems to mean is that she likes wearing dressing and doing women things. To me, she is endorsing harmful stereotypes about what it means to be a women. From what I have seen many trans-gender people who are biologically one sex, say they feel like they were given the wrong gender, or they were born the wrong gender, right? Most often it is switching to the other gender. My old friend from high-school who is trans-gender and now calls herself a women, she grew long hair and started wearing dresses and talking in a higher pitched voice and shopping with her girlfriends. I believe this is the common case, and it seems to be endorsing a lot of stereotypes about women.

So I do think you're coming across as well-intentioned but this post is basically gaslighting and horrible transphobia and it's really not ok to me but I'm going to need some time to explain why.
 
You live in a house with a hole in the roof where snow and rain fall through, pipes that leak feces out of the walls constantly, an inch of sewer water on every floor, and light fixtures that electrocute you if you try to use the switch. You call your landlord and he fixes the hole in the roof. Do you now live in an ideal house?

I think we have made a lot of progress and we still have a long way to go.
 
So I do think you're coming across as well-intentioned but this post is basically gaslighting and horrible transphobia and it's really not ok to me but I'm going to need some time to explain why.

Five will get you ten that gaslighting and transphobia actually was the intention and no amount of time is worth wasting on attempting to explain since wasting your time was also part of the intention.
 
Five will get you ten that gaslighting and transphobia actually was the intention and no amount of time is worth wasting on attempting to explain since wasting your time was also part of the intention.

You are incorrect about my intentions.
 
You are incorrect about my intentions.

To quote one particular idiot, your lack of self awareness is humorous.

More to the point, your telling yourself that no one around here recognizes the obvious is hilarious.
 
I think we have made a lot of progress and we still have a long way to go.

And I think this is completely different from what you originally said, and indeed wholly unrelated to an evaluation of whether we live in a violent society.

Bob: “Jim please help me I’ve been stabbed”
Jim: “Bob didn’t you know a lot of people died in World War II??? Please stop complaining if you don’t have anything to complain about”

You are incorrect about my intentions.

It definitely seems like your intentions began with defending Peterson along the lines of him not being that transphobic, but sadly your immense ignorance about gender has shown that you’re probably not the best judge of that
 
I know what my intentions are, and I know where my heart is, and I also know there is no way any of you could have access to that information. So when you are incorrectly telling me what my intentions are, I not only know that you are comfortable asserting something that you couldn't know, but I also know that you are wrong. This is one thing I can be certain about, my own thoughts and feelings on this topic. I want what is best for everyone, especially trans people, and I have a different idea about what gender is and isn't than what I am hearing from many on the far left, and I think it would be the most helpful thing for everyone.
 
So when you are incorrectly telling me what my intentions are, I not only know that you are comfortable asserting something that you couldn't know, but I also know that you are wrong.

Funny. When I find that my intentions, and what I am saying generally, are being widely misinterpreted, I tend to examine how I created such an image of myself. Guess being so self-aware it only occurs to you that you're fine and it's the world that's wrong.
 
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