Jordan Peterson

[inthesomeday]

Haha, no, that isn't what I think or what I said. You summarized our society as one of violence and not dialog. I disagreed, because I think it has more dialog than violence. This becomes especially clear with a proper historical lens.

Where is the dialogue? I see plenty of violence.

A little bit. My turn the ask the questions, have you ever met a conservative?

Unfortunately.

I mean surely you see the difference between a trans person and a conservative, right?

 

[Synobun]

You're joking?
EDIT: Ok, I believe you - but why would such a wholly trivial change take years?

Canada, and I believe a few states in the US, are reluctant to legally change someone's information unless they can reasonably convince a judge that the change is justified, and even then it often requires testimony from 'trusted figures'. If you don't have a 'justifiable' reason, time is your second choice. If you can prove you've been using your new name for at least 3-5 years, then that can be applicable too. It's also a bit of a financial sink, especially if you're foreign.

I changed my name, gosh, probably five or six years ago but it's still legally the same as it was. Getting my birth certificate translated and then revised, plus the actual application, would cost me several hundred dollars. You also can't preemptively change your other information as they will each request independent verification of your legal name change. When I checked they wouldn't just let you photocopy your form and you'd need to purchase a notarized copy from the government, although I am not sure if that is still the case (I have not checked in years at this point). While the company, or government agency, confirms your name change, your access to the associated service is put on hold.

If I were to go through the name change process now, I'd lose my disability/government benefits for probably 2-3 months (and they don't do retroactive pay so those would be 2-3 completely lost months financially). I'd likely also lose access to my bank account, and I'd lose my SIN for however long it takes them to replace the card. Not to mention that any passport changes would be met with additional scrutiny and my citizenship card would become an invalid form of ID.

It's a complete circus of a process to go through. Someone trapped in Vancouver's DTES is not going to be able to navigate it, and so I don't hold it against her that her legal info still says Jeffrey and male.

On the flip side, government paperwork here also provides a field specifically for different identities. They usually don't offer it up-front but it's there, even if only on the back-end. Like in the case you linked, the VPD has a section where you can list a person's preferred/most responsive names and identities.

 

[Evie]

A little bit. My turn the ask the questions, have you ever met a conservative?

Yes. Most of them - the ones I've met - were genuinely good people, and eminently accepting and supportive of me and my transition, because whether or not they agree with me politically, they're genuinely good people, and put basic humanity ahead of sociopolitical grandstanding. One of them is among my very best friends (and immensely supportive).

Synsensea - while that's the general namechanging rule, when it comes to gender change, all you need to do (at least in Quebec, and Quebec is usually pretty hardcore on name change rules) is meet the requirement for a legal gender marker change to get a complimentary name change along with it.

 

[Chose]

Where is the dialogue? I see plenty of violence.

I mean we are having a dialogue, right now. I have dialogue with my family, my coworkers, my friends every single day. I see global conversations about gun control, town hall meetings, etc.. I see violence, of course, as well. Not much in my own life fortunately.

Unfortunately.

I mean surely you see the difference between a trans person and a conservative, right?

Indeed, you have just illustrated one difference nicely. It is rightfully considered despicable to answer "Unfortunately" when asked if you have met a trans person, but apparently that same basic human courtesy isn't extended to conservatives. Another would be that I presume you have no problem saying that the opinion of what 'gender' means to a conservative doesn't matter to you in the slightest, or am I wrong about that?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Indeed, you have just illustrated one difference nicely. It is rightfully considered despicable to answer "Unfortunately" when asked if you have met a trans person, but apparently that same basic human courtesy isn't extended to conservatives.

Credit where credit is due, this was a pretty nice shot @inthesomeday.

 

[El_Machinae]

I find that the median person I know who'd self-identify as 'conservative' tends to speak rather poorly regarding any issue regarding the transgender topic. I usually have to baby-step them towards not only changing their view on the topic, but merely changing their language in order to not seem so hateful. It takes a bit of effort, but I find I can occasionally get one of them to no longer see the entire social-push to assist transgendered people as merely a hassle they must endure. Remember, their morality works a little differently, and so it takes a bit of time to increase the level of empathy they're willing to show towards something they don't understand but slightly fear.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I find that the median person I know who'd self-identify as 'conservative' tends to speak rather poorly regarding any issue regarding the transgender topic. I usually have to baby-step them towards not only changing their view on the topic, but merely changing their language in order to not seem so hateful. It takes a bit of effort, but I find I can occasionally get one of them to no longer see the entire social-push to assist transgendered people as merely a hassle they must endure. Remember, their morality works a little differently, and so it takes a bit of time to increase the level of empathy they're willing to show towards something they don't understand.

Key word there is "self-identify." The majority of people I know who are conservatives seem to have turned it into a sixteen letter word that is pronounced 'conservativebut' and always followed by an assortment of evidence that they do not support the "announced conservative and proud of it" folk who have badly tarnished the brand. People who just proudly say 'conservative' and jut their chin out...well, a target is a target.

 

[Evie]

I think there is a huge difference between conservative for whom transgenderism is a social/political question (ie, those who have no personal stake in it, and those who are the moral crusader types), and those who see transgender questions as largely human question (ie, those who know transgender people or otherwise have found ways to relate to them, and prefer real people over political grandstanding).

 

[El_Machinae]

Key word there is "self-identify."

Not really, it's my term, not theirs. I am not speaking about people who partisanly refer to themselves as conservatives. I am talking about people who would say they lean that way when pressed. I say 'who would self-identify' not 'who self-identify' as a way of clarifying. The majority of these would identify as being conservative, but would very easily tick of a number of 'liberal' preferences when pressed, as well.

The entire political spectrum is very ephemeral when dealing with actual people. It's not until they get incensed enough to choose a tribe do their reasoning faculties diminish.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I think there is a huge difference between conservative for whom transgenderism is a social/political question (ie, those who have no personal stake in it, and those who are the moral crusader types), and those who see transgender questions as largely human question (ie, those who know transgender people or otherwise have found ways to relate to them, and prefer real people over political grandstanding).

This is the same idea as what my pastor said after church Sunday about racism, which he tries to keep me from getting in actual fights about.

I see older white women in the grocery store who I am sure would have called me '......' to my face forty years ago, and muttered it under their breath ten years ago...but since they are with their mixed race grandkids they can't say anything and just have to look like they sucked a lemon. While sad, it's progress.

 

[inthesomeday]

I mean we are having a dialogue, right now. I have dialogue with my family, my coworkers, my friends every single day. I see global conversations about gun control, town hall meetings, etc.. I see violence, of course, as well. Not much in my own life fortunately.

But this is the thing, such a concept of dialogue is so mind-bogglingly limited it might be better treated as a game. While politicians and news anchors of all liberal parties in the west argue back and forth about the specific extent to which government should be allowed to control the lives of the people, the constant and ever-present violence of capitalism marches on uninterested all across the globe. So I guess if just anything can be considered dialogue then sure there’s lots of dialogue. Over whether the frat party should order pizza or Chinese, over who wore it best, over what specific measures the government is allowed to take to protect oil interests.

Indeed, you have just illustrated one difference nicely. It is rightfully considered despicable to answer "Unfortunately" when asked if you have met a trans person, but apparently that same basic human courtesy isn't extended to conservatives.

Because a conservative exists by choice. Trans people don’t choose to be born in the body they are.

Look at it this way: I’m a communist, right, but if some guy says “I hate communists” I don’t really take personal offense to it because as I choose to be a communist I have to accept that cultural conflict is a struggle I’ve gotta deal with. But if some guy says “I hate Filipinos” I take it pretty personally. I didn’t choose to be Filipino, and to invalidate me for it is racist. Disliking conservatives because they seek to perpetuate vile systems of oppression is perfectly fine; disliking them because they’re trans is not.

Another would be that I presume you have no problem saying that the opinion of what 'gender' means to a conservative doesn't matter to you in the slightest, or am I wrong about that?

You’re right! Mostly because it’s normally in disregard of scientific fact, that gender identity is completely distinct from sex or sexual orientation, but also because I choose not to respect or listen to conservative opinions as a matter of principle, as I find their racist, misogynistic, and classist programs of thought and action to be generally despicable, the same as they are perfectly entitled to find my love for the poor despicable.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Not really, it's my term, not theirs. I am not speaking about people who partisanly refer to themselves as conservatives. I am talking about people who would say they lean that way when pressed. I say 'who would self-identify' not 'who self-identify' as a way of clarifying. The majority of these would identify as being conservative, but would very easily tick of a number of 'liberal' preferences when pressed, as well.

The entire political spectrum is very ephemeral when dealing with actual people. It's not until they get incensed enough to choose a tribe do their reasoning faculties diminish.

Throwing that 'would' in there does make a difference, but that's actually what I was referring to also. I know very very few people who could even be pressed into saying 'conservative,' though I know a whole lot of 'conservativebuts.' if you press enough for them to say anything they definitely have that but locked and loaded.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Look at it this way: I’m a communist, right, but if some guy says “I hate communists” I don’t really take personal offense to it because as I choose to be a communist I have to accept that cultural conflict is a struggle I’ve gotta deal with. But if some guy says “I hate Filipinos” I take it pretty personally. I didn’t choose to be Filipino, and to invalidate me for it is racist. Disliking conservatives because they seek to perpetuate vile systems of oppression is perfectly fine; disliking them because they’re trans is not.

This was a good recovery, but as shown in the conversation between me and El Mac there's something in the self identification. It is distinctly possible that I am as supportive of most communist principles as you are, and almost certain that my lifestyle exemplifies more communist principles, but it would never cross my mend to call myself "a communist." It's nice that if i called you a communist you wouldn't take it as a "lose your mind" word and move to direct confrontation, but to me that is just an indication of taking your position weakly.

The 'conservative' I'm taking about when I am disliking them is the guy who takes his position so to heart that he says "lib'rul" with a sneer and uses malformed words like "dumbocrat." Those are the people who "seek to perpetuate vile systems of oppression," and they deserve whatever they get...but they are rare, and I think even a lot of people who are about as committed to conservatism as you probably are to communism don't really like them either.

 

[El_Machinae]

Throwing that 'would' in there does make a difference, but that's actually what I was referring to also. I know very very few people who could even be pressed into saying 'conservative,' though I know a whole lot of 'conservativebuts.' if you press enough for them to say anything they definitely have that but locked and loaded.

Wouldn't nearly everyone have a 'but' locked and loaded when asked to express their preferences to a binary question?

 

[Arwon]

I mean, except for the actual fascists and some of the weirder theocracy types, most conservatives are still liberals anyway, so the self-ID mostly tells me the conversation isn't gonna be very interesting to begin with.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Wouldn't nearly everyone have a 'but' locked and loaded when asked to express their preferences to a binary question?

Nope. There are plenty of people who are so well into "incensed enough to choose a tribe" that "their reasoning faculties diminish" has reached a point close enough to stopped that they feel no need.

 

[Lexicus]

Self criticism is literally Maoism

Self-criticism has been around at least since, oh, 1000 BC or so? Maoist "self-crit" is cultish misanthropy for the most part...or at least, that's how it's typically applied in leftbook...

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Self-criticism has been around at least since, oh, 1000 BC or so? Maoist "self-crit" is cultish misanthropy for the most part...or at least, that's how it's typically applied in leftbook...

I took that as sarcasm. The number of people commenting in certain quarters of the internet who would say "Self examination?? Eff off, you communist" is far from small.

 

[El_Machinae]

I mean, except for the actual fascists and some of the weirder theocracy types, most conservatives are still liberals anyway, so the self-ID mostly tells me the conversation isn't gonna be very interesting to begin with.

No, it is. Because they're going to take the knee-jerk 'conservative' position until they've been directly confronted on it. It's for the same reason why you know they're actually liberals - they need to personalize the question before they'll give the liberal answer.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

No, it is. Because they're going to take the knee-jerk 'conservative' position until they've been directly confronted on it. It's for the same reason why you know they're actually liberals - they need to personalize the question before they'll give the liberal answer.

Is there really any point though? I mean, maybe it makes them momentarily more attractive, which is fine, but do you think that you are setting that 'wait, you actually have a personal stake in this' deeply enough that the next time their knee jerks it is not going to catch someone in the groin exactly the same way anyhow?