Jordan Peterson

[inthesomeday]

I mean yeah tankies suck but to say they’re worse than bourg oligarchies is... just so wrong, in so many ways. Tankie countries have been essentially social democracies, which I think you’ll agree is an incremental improvement on straight up liberal capitalism.

 

[Lexicus]

I mean yeah tankies suck but to say they’re worse than bourg oligarchies is... just so wrong, in so many ways. Tankie countries have been essentially social democracies, which I think you’ll agree is an incremental improvement on straight up liberal capitalism.

1) You saying this makes you a tankie as far as I'm concerned

2) The assertion that Marxist-Leninist regimes are "essentially social democracies" is utterly absurd. Every Marxist-Leninist regime ever has violently suppressed the independent organizations of the working class where those have challenged or even looked like challenging the Party's authority.

3) "Straight up liberal capitalism" has never really existed, but any pluralist society with political freedoms and civil rights is axiomatically superior, from a socialist perspective, to any society in which political freedoms are suppressed and civil rights non-existent. If the working class has no freedom to organize to advance its interests through independent organizations (as opposed to Party organizations which are no different than the Nazi DAF in that they are vehicles designed to suppress rather than to advance class conflict), it will be immiserated.

 

[inthesomeday]

1) You saying this makes you a tankie as far as I'm concerned

Neat

2) The assertion that Marxist-Leninist regimes are "essentially social democracies" is utterly absurd. Every Marxist-Leninist regime ever has violently suppressed the independent organizations of the working class where those have challenged or even looked like challenging the Party's authority.

Yeah, still not hearing how this is any worse than western liberal capitalism?

3) "Straight up liberal capitalism" has never really existed, but any pluralist society with political freedoms and civil rights is axiomatically superior, from a socialist perspective, to any society in which political freedoms are suppressed and civil rights non-existent. If the working class has no freedom to organize to advance its interests through independent organizations (as opposed to Party organizations which are no different than the Nazi DAF in that they are vehicles designed to suppress rather than to advance class conflict), it will be immiserated.

Ah yes I love all my American political freedom and civil rights and pluralism

 

[Lexicus]

Yeah, still not hearing how this is any worse than western liberal capitalism?

I'm sitting in DC in the office of a large independent organization of the working class. Despite all its problems (there are lots) it delivers a good standard of living for its members and others in the same trades, because it is able to act independently on their behalf in a way that it would not if it had to toe a Party line of some kind.

Ah yes I love all my American political freedom and civil rights and pluralism

Well, I'll be the first to say that the US frequently fails to live up to these ideals. But living up to them imperfectly is quite a bit better than not having them at all. And in spite of everything, we can work to make this country live up to its ideals. In the typical Marxist-Leninist regime merely pointing out the difference between principle and reality was good for ten years in the gulag...

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Ah yes I love all my American political freedom and civil rights and pluralism

Can't blame you for that. It is pretty lovable. Especially when you throw in all the economic advantage and profligate consumption that we are allowed.

 

[inthesomeday]

I'm sitting in DC in the office of a large independent organization of the working class. Despite all its problems (there are lots) it delivers a good standard of living for its members and others in the same trades, because it is able to act independently on their behalf in a way that it would not if it had to toe a Party line of some kind.

What organization is that? Does it represent workers realistically any better than the Soviets? What is the demographic makeup of the worker base it represents? Why are you willingly in DC and not in a Fugazi pit?

Well, I'll be the first to say that the US frequently fails to live up to these ideals. But living up to them imperfectly is quite a bit better than not having them at all. And in spite of everything, we can work to make this country live up to its ideals. In the typical Marxist-Leninist regime merely pointing out the difference between principle and reality was good for ten years in the gulag...

Nice propaganda guy— even if it were true I’m not so interested in a country founded on property rights

Can't blame you for that. It is pretty lovable. Especially when you throw in all the economic advantage and profligate consumption that we are allowed.

All made available to the working class by the tears, sweat, and especially blood of marxists

 

[Lexicus]

What organization is that?

I prefer to retain a greater degree of anonymity here than I feel can be retained by answering this question.

Does it represent workers realistically any better than the Soviets?

You mean, like, the actual soviets as in the workers' councils? Yes. Home-run, grand-slam yes.

What is the demographic makeup of the worker base it represents?

Mainly white men, but increasingly racially diverse. The campaign I've been working on for the last year and a half mostly concerns Latino men in the Los Angeles area.

Why are you willingly in DC and not in a Fugazi pit?

"Willingly" had nothing to do with it

Nice propaganda guy

Which part is propaganda? Do you think nothing has changed for the better in these United States in 250 years?

even if it were true I’m not so interested in a country founded on property rights

Good luck with that.

All made available to the working class by the tears, sweat, and especially blood of marxists

Hey, the more e d g y far-left position is that the American working class is a hopeless "labor aristocracy", effectively bribed out of proper radicalism by the proceeds of the imperialist protection racket.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

All made available to the working class by the tears, sweat, and especially blood of marxists

So are you bleeding, sweating, or crying there in San Diego? Or have you stepped into the highest ranks by doing all three?

 

[Chose]

Never thought I'd find myself agreeing with @Lexicus for laying out a realistic and moderate position. Something must be wrong with my internal compass. CFC is messing with me. I need a nap.

 

[Lexicus]

I like to strike out a position of high-minded moderation between one far-left worldview and another slightly less far-left worldview

 

[inthesomeday]

I prefer to retain a greater degree of anonymity here than I feel can be retained by answering this question.

Fair enough. But if your anonymity is compromised how large could it be?

You mean, like, the actual soviets as in the workers' councils? Yes. Home-run, grand-slam yes.

Hm. In America? What a sight to see.

Mainly white men, but increasingly racially diverse. The campaign I've been working on for the last year and a half mostly concerns Latino men in the Los Angeles area.

This is a national organization?

"Willingly" had nothing to do with it

Ah. Condolences, comrade.

Which part is propaganda? Do you think nothing has changed for the better in these United States in 250 years?

You use the word “trope” a lot to describe things like “TEN YEARS GULAG FOR DISRUPTING PARTY LINE COMRADE!!!”

Good luck with that.

Thanks, we’re gonna need it!

Hey, the more e d g y far-left position is that the American working class is a hopeless "labor aristocracy", effectively bribed out of proper radicalism by the proceeds of the imperialist protection racket.

I’m sure you know this but whatever transphobic, ableist, embarrassing-red-Mohawk YouTube LARPers that promote this kind of thing is pretty much a joke.

So are you bleeding, sweating, or crying there in San Diego? Or have you stepped into the highest ranks by doing all three?

Fam I cry every day

I like to strike out a position of high-minded moderation between one far-left worldview and another slightly less far-left worldview

To reiterate: liberalism is not far-left

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Fam I cry every day

Yeah, San Diego is rough.

 

[Lexicus]

This is a national organization?

As most unions do, it has an international based in DC (which I work for) and a bunch of locals covering most of the country. We are working on this campaign with the local based in Southern California and Las Vegas, which is one of our most progressive locals and also one of the locals most interested in doing actual organizing work. Probably not coincidentally, it is also one of the most racially diverse.

You use the word “trope” a lot to describe things like “TEN YEARS GULAG FOR DISRUPTING PARTY LINE COMRADE!!!”

I use the word 'trope' when I feel people are relying too hard on ideological frames and not confronting the facts of a situation. In the case of historical Marxist-Leninist regimes, "TEN YEARS GULAG FOR DISRUPTING PARTY LINE COMRADE" is something that happened quite frequently. It is the odd trope that has no basis whatever in fact. One example I can give is the author of the Kolyma Tales, Varlam Shalamov, a Trotskyist who ultimately served nearly twenty years in various gulags for the crime of distributing Lenin's Testament and uttering the slogan "Down with Stalin".

I’m sure you know this but whatever transphobic, ableist, embarrassing-red-Mohawk YouTube LARPers that promote this kind of thing is pretty much a joke.

I mean. This line of thought (workers in the colonialist countries are beneficiaries of the exploitation of the colonized countries) has been an important component of far-left thought for a long time. It's present in Lenin's work and was a major component of Maoism in the 60s and 70s. You still see MTW (Maoist Third-Worldism) mentioned as a major lefty school of thought in the leftbook circles I used to run in.

I actually do happen to think that the working class in the US is bribed with the proceeds of exploitation of the global South. Virtually all consumer goods are sold at prices that are possible only because of the exploitation, fraud, or other abuse involved in their supply chains.

But yes, I do know that people who come down too hard on the "labor aristocracy" thing are generally speaking, a joke. I wouldn't have expected you to dismiss them that way though.

To reiterate: liberalism is not far-left

That was just a joke, I wasn't referring to liberalism as the slightly less far-left ideology.

 

[inthesomeday]

Yeah, San Diego is rough.

For those of my complexion, very.

As most unions do, it has an international based in DC (which I work for) and a bunch of locals covering most of the country. We are working on this campaign with the local based in Southern California and Las Vegas, which is one of our most progressive locals and also one of the locals most interested in doing actual organizing work. Probably not coincidentally, it is also one of the most racially diverse.

So by “independent organization advocating worker’s rights” you mean “21st century American union”, and are claiming this union represents workers better than the Soviets. Good we’re clear on that.

I use the word 'trope' when I feel people are relying too hard on ideological frames and not confronting the facts of a situation. In the case of historical Marxist-Leninist regimes, "TEN YEARS GULAG FOR DISRUPTING PARTY LINE COMRADE" is something that happened quite frequently. It is the odd trope that has no basis whatever in fact. One example I can give is the author of the Kolyma Tales, Varlam Shalamov, a Trotskyist who ultimately served nearly twenty years in various gulags for the crime of distributing Lenin's Testament and uttering the slogan "Down with Stalin".

Right, because no American in the period 1910s-1940s was jailed for activism.

I mean. This line of thought (workers in the colonialist countries are beneficiaries of the exploitation of the colonized countries) has been an important component of far-left thought for a long time. It's present in Lenin's work and was a major component of Maoism in the 60s and 70s. You still see MTW (Maoist Third-Worldism) mentioned as a major lefty school of thought in the leftbook circles I used to run in.

I actually do happen to think that the working class in the US is bribed with the proceeds of exploitation of the global South. Virtually all consumer goods are sold at prices that are possible only because of the exploitation, fraud, or other abuse involved in their supply chains.

And you call me a tankie.

But yes, I do know that people who come down too hard on the "labor aristocracy" thing are generally speaking, a joke. I wouldn't have expected you to dismiss them that way though.

Dismissed

That was just a joke, I wasn't referring to liberalism as the slightly less far-left ideology.

You were referring to what you’re advocating in this thread, right? Because then you are referring to liberalism.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Dismissed

Looks like you couldn't dodge the labeling process @Lexicus.

Dismissals for all who are not cut of the same cardboard!!!!

 

[Lexicus]

So by “independent organization advocating worker’s rights” you mean “21st century American union”, and are claiming this union represents workers better than the Soviets. Good we’re clear on that.

Yes, American unions do a better job of representing their workers than the soviets did. That is less true for the early period when the soviets actually had a degree of independence from the centralized control of the Party. I also think American unions do a better job of representing their workers than the German Labor Front, fwiw.

And you call me a tankie.

*scratches head* You actually think that "the global North exploits the global South" is a "tankie" position?

You were referring to what you’re advocating in this thread, right? Because then you are referring to liberalism.

I was not referring to anything I am arguing in this thread.

Looks like you couldn't dodge the labeling process @Lexicus.

Dismissals for all who are not cut of the same cardboard!!!!

I don't think he was labeling me there, though I may not be interpreting correctly.

 

[inthesomeday]

Yes, American unions do a better job of representing their workers than the soviets did. That is less true for the early period when the soviets actually had a degree of independence from the centralized control of the Party. I also think American unions do a better job of representing their workers than the German Labor Front, fwiw.

Soviets are the REAL Nazis

*scratches head* You actually think that "the global North exploits the global South" is a "tankie" position?

Nope. I think “the poor of the global north exploits the global south” is.

I don't think he was labeling me there, though I may not be interpreting correctly.

I was dismissing the pictured man, Jason Unruhe.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't think he was labeling me there, though I may not be interpreting correctly.

More accurately, not labeling. I'm pretty convinced that "If you don't claim communist you are dismissed" sums things up pretty conveniently.

 

[Lexicus]

Soviets are the REAL Nazis

This is a fairly classic example of the substitution of a trope for analysis of actual facts. The trope is that the Nazis are axiomatically "the opposite" of socialists and so any comparison of the two must be some form of liberal horseshoe theory designed to obscure the differences (or, worse, serve as a form of Nazi apologism by comparing Nazis favorably to Stalinists). Historically Stalinists had no trouble working with the Nazis when it was seen as being to their advantage, and indeed Stalin was supplying Hitler with the raw materials he eventually used to sustain the invasion of the Soviet Union, but reality is largely ignored because the trope is Manichaeism.

Nazism and Stalinism do have many similarities. And that is unsurprising since the immediate political goal of both Nazis and Leninists was to annihilate the distinction between civil society and the state by replacing both with the Party. They wanted to do this to accomplish very different aims, but their methods ended up being fairly similar. In the context of this political project, all independent organizations of the working class (which are part of civil society) must be brought in line with the Party, whereupon they cease being independent organizations and start being Party organizations.

Nope. I think “the poor of the global north exploits the global south” is.

I think that if we were being intersectional we could recognize that the poor of the global north participate in the exploitation of the global south while still being exploited themselves. Rather like the classic understanding of poor whites as exploiters of the black underclass even as they are being exploited by the rich whites.

I was dismissing the pictured man, Jason Unruhe.

Well, look at that, I'm not totally clueless.

More accurately, not labeling. I'm pretty convinced that "If you don't claim communist you are dismissed" sums things up pretty conveniently.

Well, yes, but inthesomeday is doing a good job of concealing his contempt for my liberal and reformist treason and I want to encourage that behavior.

 

[aelf]

@aelf If one makes a racist or sexist claim, surely it is normal to explain how and why the claim is wrong, or at least irrelevant, rather than go: "Shh! You're not supposed to mention it!".

Yeah, so you're arguing that no claim is not worth making.

Know that that view is far from uncontroversial and plenty of reasonable people don't agree, not just SJWs, the far left, the radical left, or whatever you wanna call it.