Jose Padilla, an American's rights revoked.

[Jorge]

So basically the Congress has the ability to jump over the legal branch without any kind of brake. It's dangerous if they start to do so.

 

[Enemy Ace]

A War On Terrorism, a war that the U.S Gov't admits may never end. It seems it is open season on civil rights.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Originally posted by Enemy Ace
A War On Terrorism, a war that the U.S Gov't admits may never end. It seems it is open season on civil rights.

Its especially frightening when you take into account that the Bush administration has taken the position that Al Qaeda has turned U.S. territory into a battlefield, so military justice can be applied to U.S. citizens merely suspected of having ties to Al Qaeda. Thats a pretty broad, vague definition which allows for all sorts of definitions of what an enemy combatant is.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Scaremongering. As fulfilling and fitting as it would be, they aren't going to come for you, or other leftists, or everyone who disagrees with the government.

Besides, it's not civil rights season. It's wabbit season.

 

[Enemy Ace]

There are reasons to be afraid.

Oh, and politicalcompass.com placed me slightly right.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I dont think its merely scare mongering when theyre already locking American citizens up and denying them the right to legal counsel or speedy trials. After the military junta takes over, dont worry, they'll come after us leftists. But till that day comes, its duck season

 

[Simon Darkshade]

You've still got a good two years before they hand you lot over to me. Make the most of your time.

It is scaremongering if you take the crime and the threat out of context and out of the equation.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
You've still got a good two years before they hand you lot over to me. Make the most of your time.

If thats the sort of society you fancy, what is it exactly about the Red Chinese that makes you froth at the mouth. I'd think you'd love it there.

It is scaremongering if you take the crime and the threat out of context and out of the equation.

Crime? What crime? The man hasnt been tried in a court of law. What proof is there that a crime has been committed? As of right now, there are only hints and allegations.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Originally posted by Dumb pothead
If thats the sort of society you fancy, what is it exactly about the Red Chinese that makes you froth at the mouth. I'd think you'd love it there.

Crime? What crime? The man hasnt been tried in a court of law. What proof is there that a crime has been committed? As of right now, there are only hints and allegations.

If you can't figure that one out, then you must have been asleep these past years. Red. Chinese. Wicked. Communist dictatorship.

The proof and suspicion that he is being held upon is enough. The civilian standard of proof is not applicable to a circumstance of national security; conspiracy is harder to prove, but the results in this case are more than dire. It is being kept to hints and minimum detail for a very good reason, given the sensitivity of ongoing operations, and the need to combat the dastardly terrorist organization that is opposed. Even a trial in camera is a security risk, given the misplaced loyalties of some.
A military tribunal, at the appropriate time, is just as effective as a speedy trial, and even more speedy.

If he turns out to just be an innocent victim of circumstances, then give him a pat on the back, 5 years worth of tea and a flat in Southern Lebanon. Given the choice between offending the rights of one individual and preventing the loss of thousands of lives, one goes for the latter.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Sorry Simon, but me and a few million other Americans could never just take the governments word for it if they start locking up Americans and making them dissapear without trials. Thats what they do in China remember? Unless youre a high ranking government official, theres scant little difference between living under a communist dictatorship and a fascist one.

 

[amadeus]

I don't get it...and this isn't to any one specific poster, but why do some of those who advocate a bloated nanny state and trust the government can effectively operate social services, do not trust the government to their security?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Because most Americans believe all the b.s. about rights and freedom, and due process of law.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Well, then I guess you'll just have to sit in the corner cry about it, as it is happening, and there isn't anything that will stop it. The feelings of a few who oppose the government anyway will not give them pause in doing what is necessary to fight and win the war, and protect the lives and security of not just all Americans, but the whole of the West and indeed the civilized world.

Padilla hasn't disappeared. He even has a lawyer of sorts. He will get a trial, be it before civilian or military tribunal, when the appropriate time has come. Until then, he remains a guest of the government, helping them with their inquiries. Think of it as fulfilling his patriotic duty.
Holding suspected terrorists without trial or charge is a common action throughout the world, and not just in China. There is also sufficient evidence for them to do so; otherwise there is the precedent of Lindh to follow.

And there are many differences between a communist dictatorship and the beauties of fascism. The music is better, for starters.

 

[amadeus]

If suspension of habeas corpus is part of the law during wartime, how can the law violate itself?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
Well, then I guess you'll just have to sit in the corner cry about it, as it is happening, and there isn't anything that will stop it. The feelings of a few who oppose the government anyway will not give them pause in doing what is necessary to fight and win the war, and protect the lives and security of not just all Americans, but the whole of the West and indeed the civilized world.

For the time being, we still have elections, that will be one way to try and stop it. About fighting and winning the war on terrorism, as soon as we no longer have rights, the war is over, and we lost. The terrorists want to destroy our way of life, and when that day comes, they will have won.

Padilla hasn't disappeared. He even has a lawyer of sorts.

Yeah, a lawyer that he cant speak to. Come on man, wake up and smell the dictatorship. Furthermore, you fascists are terrible dancers.

@rmsharpe, in a war without an end, what happens to habeus corpus? Extinct like the Carrier Pigeon?

 

[Simon Darkshade]

The electoral road is only applicable if there is a viable candidate who opposes the action taken. Though I'm sure that Herr Nader appreciates your vote.

Lovely little rhetoric equating rights with life itself, but empty. Life comes first. When you are alive, you can rebuild and repair, or even build. It does comes down to whether you want Padilla to have all his precious rights, or innocents to live

One said 'of sorts' for a reason. But it is better than nothing, and better than what he could get.

As for the comparison of fascist dictatorship and communist dictatorship, the standard of living and conditions for the ordinary person were quite better under fascism. Unless you were Jewish, communist, homosexual, or disagreed with the regime. Otherwise, though, life could be quite nice and successful.

And real men do not dance. Ever.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I HATE Herr Nader. I hate him more than Bush because he's a filthy traitor who helped hand over the last election to the neo cons. He'd better not drive around Dallas while Im in town with a high powered rifle.

Lovely little rhetoric equating rights with life itself, but empty. Life comes first. When you are alive, you can rebuild and repair, or even build.

Life without liberty has no value. I wont live in a world like 1984. Better a dead rebel than a live robot.

And real men do not dance. Ever.

Hey youre right about that one actually.

edit: He'd better not drive around Dallas while Im in town with a high powered rifle. On second thought, thats a pretty dumb statement. How about this instead:

He'd better not walk around Hoboken in a white suit while Im in town with a bucket of manure

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
He should be held as an enemy combatant until such time when he can be tried secretly, and hung publicly. The rules change in a conflict such as this, with such matters at stake.

Don't let a little thing like him maybe being innocent get in your way.

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by Speedo


Sorry, but no. Unless the govt starts (literally) arresting every other person like this, "the people" won't really care.

They won't. Unless they start arresting white people. Then people will start to care because it might actually happen to them.

The non-japanese didn't give much of a damn when they were rounding THEM up either. No it's looked back as a shamefull part of our history. I wonder how this will look 40 years from now?

 

[SewerStarFish]

MORE PRO HOLDING Padilia
Mentioned early in this thread is that is a great deal more leeway than people understand about our highest law.
Article 1:
Section 8 Clause 11: To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;This portion allows congress to decide how combatants are treated

Section 9 Clause 2: The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. And here it can be argued that "the public Safety" requires it

MORE AGAINST: The actual Supreme court ruling on A. Lincoln's exercise of suspending Habeas Corpus during the Civil War.

Just remember: the Supreme Court could choose to not equate that decision to this kind of case.



While I am PRO -- I will not be surprised if court rules against. I think there are excellent arguements on both sides