[GS] June 2019 Patch Details

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criZp said:
cavalry doesn't beat melee. crossbows doesn't beat muskets, cities can't stop massive pillaging, and then you're only left with muh allies, another uncertain source of defense.
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The mistake in this conversation is to compare musketmen to other units in a 1v1, rock paper scissors showdown. Yes, musketmen (a renaissance unit) are stronger than crossbows, coursers, and knights (all medieval units) if all things are equal. But all things are not equal in this game. Things like promotions, resources, terrain, numerical advantages, range, etc etc, all play a role. And the advantage musketmen have over other units is not so great it can't be overcome.
 
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Why are people trying to compare muskets to knights? Historically, muskets were the counter to knights. Muskets didn't require the training that knights or archers did. The British conquered half the planet on a bunch of muskets standing in a square. The counter to muskets didn't arise until better guns and field cannons. The musket was a game-changer.

People obsessing about the RPS methodology in a civ game make no sense. Sometimes in history you find units that literally change the tech curve and if you're the first one to get them you SHOULD dominate the battlefield.
 
Looks like the patch is a slight overall nerf to warmongering. Well, with the Real Strategy mod it might end up being a big nerf, lol. Oh well, will have to step my game up and find ways to warmonger without caring about the grievances or getting ganged up on. Until they put in Trade Embargoes on the World Congress like Civ 5, warmongering still has viable uses. If they ever put in embargoes, warmongering will be come an artform, needless to say.
 
Duuk said:
Why are people trying to compare muskets to knights? Historically, muskets were the counter to knights. Muskets didn't require the training that knights or archers did. The British conquered half the planet on a bunch of muskets standing in a square. The counter to muskets didn't arise until better guns and field cannons. The musket was a game-changer.

People obsessing about the RPS methodology in a civ game make no sense. Sometimes in history you find units that literally change the tech curve and if you're the first one to get them you SHOULD dominate the battlefield.
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Yeah, people with guns are good at shooting people with swords and metal armor. What crazy talk!
 
Duuk said:
Why are people trying to compare muskets to knights? Historically, muskets were the counter to knights. Muskets didn't require the training that knights or archers did. The British conquered half the planet on a bunch of muskets standing in a square. The counter to muskets didn't arise until better guns and field cannons. The musket was a game-changer.
Click to expand...

No, muskets were not the 'counter' to Knights.
When the only professional, full-time soldiers around are men on horseback with armor, they beat any bunch of amateurs on foot with shields and spears, or even swords.

The counter to Knights was Pikes:
1302 CE: Battle of the Spurs - knights massacred by Flemish pikemen
1314 CE: Battle of Bannockburn: Knights massacred by Scots half-pikemen
1315 CE: Battle of Morgarten - knights massacred by Swiss pikemen
See a trend here?

1411 CE: first "hand cannon or 'Hackbuss" (Arquebus) appears - first primitive musket in Europe, and it doesn't appear with a shoulder stock, making it a true individual handgun, until 1470 CE.

So, 100 - 150 years before any possible Musketman, Knights were already getting their heads (literally!) handed to them by Pikes.
Oh, and the first "Longbow Victory" over knights wasn't until 1346 CE at Crecy (well, technically the first massed use of Longbows was in 1340 CE, from Cogs in the naval battle of Sluys, but that didn't include a lot of knights on the receiving end of the arrows) - the Longbow had a great effect on the writing of English military history, but none on knights, or even on their armor - they had already started adopting fully articulated plate armor as an answer to the heavy prod Crossbow (Arbalest) in the previous century.

And the British did not conquer anybody while standing in a square: they conquered by standing in a line which developed the maximum firepower from their muskets - just like everybody else in Europe from 1700 to about 1860.
(The Square was strictly a defensive formation against cavalry and a great temptation for artillery/feild cannon, for which it provided a massive, immobile Target)

Duuk said:
People obsessing about the RPS methodology in a civ game make no sense. Sometimes in history you find units that literally change the tech curve and if you're the first one to get them you SHOULD dominate the battlefield.
Click to expand...

But if your game gets the Wrong Ones you wind up playing Fantasy and wondering why the Units don't work the way you think they should . . .
 
Boris Gudenuf said:
No, muskets were not the 'counter' to Knights.
When the only professional, full-time soldiers around are men on horseback with armor, they beat any bunch of amateurs on foot with shields and spears, or even swords.

The counter to Knights was Pikes:
1302 CE: Battle of the Spurs - knights massacred by Flemish pikemen
1314 CE: Battle of Bannockburn: Knights massacred by Scots half-pikemen
1315 CE: Battle of Morgarten - knights massacred by Swiss pikemen
See a trend here?

1411 CE: first "hand cannon or 'Hackbuss" (Arquebus) appears - first primitive musket in Europe, and it doesn't appear with a shoulder stock, making it a true individual handgun, until 1470 CE.

So, 100 - 150 years before any possible Musketman, Knights were already getting their heads (literally!) handed to them by Pikes.
Oh, and the first "Longbow Victory" over knights wasn't until 1346 CE at Crecy (well, technically the first massed use of Longbows was in 1340 CE, from Cogs in the naval battle of Sluys, but that didn't include a lot of knights on the receiving end of the arrows) - the Longbow had a great effect on the writing of English military history, but none on knights, or even on their armor - they had already started adopting fully articulated plate armor as an answer to the heavy prod Crossbow (Arbalest) in the previous century.

And the British did not conquer anybody while standing in a square: they conquered by standing in a line which developed the maximum firepower from their muskets - just like everybody else in Europe from 1700 to about 1860.
(The Square was strictly a defensive formation against cavalry and a great temptation for artillery/feild cannon, for which it provided a massive, immobile Target)



But if your game gets the Wrong Ones you wind up playing Fantasy and wondering why the Units don't work the way you think they should . . .
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Well yeah, pikes should get knights.

I guess with the "musket" in Civ I think of a later generation of tech than the arquebus.
 
I hope a drop date comes shortly. I know the patches generally come quite soon after announcement, but it is nice to know exactly when so you can plan your next game accordingly. I am ready for Small Continent games with my naval civs already!
 
Eagle Pursuit said:
Ed says there's a new Report Screen that wasn't in the video yesterday.
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I'm strangely ambivalent about this and the unit ability tooltips because I know they'll likely not be as good as what the modding community has already come up with.
 
SeelingCat said:
Here's my notes on what they talked about:
-- Medieval+ techs increased in cost
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YES!!!! Finally! I've been wishing techs would be more expensive since the beginning. Maybe with this and the increases in production, the pacing will feel better.
 
To me.. @Infixo solved the lack of worthy "Reporting Devices" in centralized terms with his excellent BRS (and other tricks) mod awhile ago.

Soooooo -- it would take some sort of extensively better official tool to snatch me away from that (by now) very familiar HUD magic with superb spreadsheet structure & rapid access to whichever gameplay details. Some of HellBlazer's "Diplo" stuff (Leaders, Relations, Graphs, etc) was copycat by someone a few weeks ago too... and i was eager to try it out again.

I would always welcome any new toys & with a pure C6 UI feel from Firaxis Devs just because good+immediate+reliable Informations are King in that gameplay.
 
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I mean, great general + knights with charge/rout can give muskets a hard time. The muskets don't have any real promotion that makes them better at fighting cavalry and sure they can get GGs of their own, except those come later.

It's actually very possible for your experienced knights to overrun untrained muskets.
 
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