June 2020 Update - Patch Notes Discussion

[Revanchist]

It already was. They NEVER nerfed Russia but it kept on getting boosted... even when they touched nothig on its actual civ ability.

Australia does everything Russia does, but better. Not only can they settle anywhere thanks to their coastal housing, but they can also make the location far better than most other civilizations with a few exceptions (Thanks to outback stations). To put a cherry on top, they have an amazing boost to districts so they won't have to worry much about competition. Prey you have a good army if you want to take them down, because they also get an amazing production boost when declared upon. Yes, this update definitely boosted Russia, but Australia is still top dog and they really need to look at balancing some of the top tier civilizations (Not to say Russia isn't one)

With that said, I really hope they pay attention to weaker civilizations that do not have a chance of catching up without significant buffs. I would rather a majority of civilizations be 'good' instead of just okay.

 

[monikernemo]

Australia does everything Russia does, but better. Not only can they settle anywhere thanks to their coastal housing, but they can also make the location far better than most other civilizations with a few exceptions (Thanks to outback stations). To put a cherry on top, they have an amazing boost to districts so they won't have to worry much about competition. Prey you have a good army if you want to take them down, because they also get an amazing production boost when declared upon. Yes, this update definitely boosted Russia, but Australia is still top dog and they really need to look at balancing some of the top tier civilizations (Not to say Russia isn't one)

Not really, you can't really compare Australia and Russia. Australia can't get pantheon under 20 turns. Australia don't have easy religion and certainly no cheap holy sites. Australia can't abuse classical monumentality as consistently as Russia. Australia does not have the kind of faith generation Russia has. Russia gets great works easily which translates to gold or even more culture which is one thing Australia cannot do.

John curtins ability is at best a situational ability. It's difficult to trigger it consistently. And Russia gets an army instantly from grandmaster chapel due to their ridiculous faith output. Don't get me wrong, I think Australia is a good civ with good abilities, but saying that Australia does everything Russia is a stretch. I think they kinda cater to different play styles, Russia focuses on faith generation and transforms that into early game advantage while the Peter's LA helps you to catch back up in term of science culture since you will be one district behind from building holy sites. Australia on the other hand is very well rounded, but you have to plan your districts well and be mindful of appeal and chops. I don't really think Australia needs balancing. Russia with work ethics on the other hand, maybe could use some work since it's quite consistent.

 

[Revanchist]

Not really, you can't really compare Australia and Russia. Australia can't get pantheon under 20 turns. Australia don't have easy religion and certainly no cheap holy sites. Australia can't abuse classical monumentality as consistently as Russia. Australia does not have the kind of faith generation Russia has. Russia gets great works easily which translates to gold or even more culture which is one thing Australia cannot do.

John curtins ability is at best a situational ability. It's difficult to trigger it consistently. And Russia gets an army instantly from grandmaster chapel due to their ridiculous faith output. Don't get me wrong, I think Australia is a good civ with good abilities, but saying that Australia does everything Russia is a stretch. I think they kinda cater to different play styles, Russia focuses on faith generation and transforms that into early game advantage while the Peter's LA helps you to catch back up in term of science culture since you will be one district behind from building holy sites. Australia on the other hand is very well rounded, but you have to plan your districts well and be mindful of appeal and chops. I don't really think Australia needs balancing. Russia with work ethics on the other hand, maybe could use some work since it's quite consistent.

Russia may have good faith output, but you are putting it up against a civ that has an amazing UI that essentially buffs itself when you place more of them down adjacent to each other. This is further buffed with natural disasters, and it isn't hard to bait the ai into attacking you if you play your cards right (Especially on higher difficulties). Peter's leader ability isn't that good if you know what you are doing, and only really comes into play on higher difficulties. On the other hand, while you won't be getting 100 percent production 24/7, 10 turns of it at least once or twice a game makes a big difference, especially in the early game. Australia's district yields should speak for themselves. Pray they don't settle next to a natural wonder or mountains.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Australia does everything Russia does, but better. Not only can they settle anywhere thanks to their coastal housing, but they can also make the location far better than most other civilizations with a few exceptions (Thanks to outback stations). To put a cherry on top, they have an amazing boost to districts so they won't have to worry much about competition. Prey you have a good army if you want to take them down, because they also get an amazing production boost when declared upon. Yes, this update definitely boosted Russia, but Australia is still top dog and they really need to look at balancing some of the top tier civilizations (Not to say Russia isn't one)

With that said, I really hope they pay attention to weaker civilizations that do not have a chance of catching up without significant buffs. I would rather a majority of civilizations be 'good' instead of just okay.

But Australia gets recked in GS and in apocalypse mode because of natural disasters-when it wercks outback stations! Russia has no problem- its unit dosen't even get hurt in Blizzard

 

[Revanchist]

But Australia gets recked in GS and in apocalypse mode because of natural disasters-when it wercks outback stations! Russia has no problem- its unit dosen't even get hurt in Blizzard

Russia is going to need quite a few blizzards to set up its tundra. Starting in the tundra is already a disadvantage by itself, and Russia makes it average. There is still usually a lack of resources, and you may have limited space to make use of Russia's abilities if you start near snow. Liang can come into play to help a city that experiences a lot of natural disasters, and it really depends on where you settle, which gives Australia a better vantage point compared to Russia considering the housing bonus and use of outback stations to basically terraform deserts.

 

[Sostratus]

Not really, you can't really compare Australia and Russia. Australia can't get pantheon under 20 turns. Australia don't have easy religion and certainly no cheap holy sites. Australia can't abuse classical monumentality as consistently as Russia. Australia does not have the kind of faith generation Russia has. Russia gets great works easily which translates to gold or even more culture which is one thing Australia cannot do.

I think the key issue, for most people, is that you have an amazing ability that affects campuses and theaters and commercial hubs right off the bat. Getting a couple early +6 or +8 campuses is one of the best starts you can possibly have - russia doesn't have science benefits like that. And you have a DoW protection in your ability.
Both are good civs but there's a reason Aussie is generally rated near the very top. This is totally ignoring outback stations, which personally i think are the best UI in the game due to pasture interaction.

The other thing to consider is that russia has TUNDRA BIAS. Yes, they get tundra buffed to basic plains but unlike canada they can't do anything with it until they get lumber mills.
Similar to a number of desert bias civs, the benefits of starting in literally not wasteland are difficult to overstate. No floodplains, most resources won't spawn there, etc.

 

[Revanchist]

Perhaps we can all reach a compromise in this thread; I'll agree to play Russia once more if all of you take a shot at Australia

Speaking of getting back to the game, did anyone have any success with 'tall' empires using some of the new beliefs?

 

[monikernemo]

Russia may have good faith output, but you are putting it up against a civ that has an amazing UI that essentially buffs itself when you place more of them down adjacent to each other. This is further buffed with natural disasters, and it isn't hard to bait the ai into attacking you if you play your cards right (Especially on higher difficulties). Peter's leader ability isn't that good if you know what you are doing, and only really comes into play on higher difficulties. On the other hand, while you won't be getting 100 percent production 24/7, 10 turns of it at least once or twice a game makes a big difference, especially in the early game. Australia's district yields should speak for themselves. Pray they don't settle next to a natural wonder or mountains.

Turn 229 91 science and 54 culture for John Curtin
I honestly expect higher yields at this stage of the game, moreso for John Curtin.
Sorry to burst your bubble I honestly think you don't really know how to play the game or where I am coming from if you are getting only 200+ science nearing turn 500.

I think the key issue, for most people, is that you have an amazing ability that affects campuses and theaters and commercial hubs right off the bat. Getting a couple early +6 or +8 campuses is one of the best starts you can possibly have - russia doesn't have science benefits like that. And you have a DoW protection in your ability.
Both are good civs but there's a reason Aussie is generally rated near the very top. This is totally ignoring outback stations, which personally i think are the best UI in the game due to pasture interaction.

The other thing to consider is that russia has TUNDRA BIAS. Yes, they get tundra buffed to basic plains but unlike canada they can't do anything with it until they get lumber mills.
Similar to a number of desert bias civs, the benefits of starting in literally not wasteland are difficult to overstate. No floodplains, most resources won't spawn there, etc.

Yes in fact I acknowledge that (high adjacency bonus) is what makes Australia shine. It is a good ability but you need to have some mastery over appeal mechanics to understand how to ability works. Do I chop trees? Do I want to raise the appeal, or do I want to lower the appeal? How should I place my districts to maximise the appeal or yields, or should I just ignore some of the less important yields? Should I place a mine for production despite lowering my adjacency bonus. I dont think its as straight forward as plopping districts.

Precisely because of the tundra bias they can get high early faith generation, early pantheon and a much more consistent game play. Maybe it is my play style but I come to realise that faith is a even stronger resource early game since you expand much quicker with a classical/medieval (even renaissance) golden age. more builders = more wonders, more districts. More settlers = more yields.

It is not true that tundra is a complete wasteland. Some resource can spawn in the tundra (spice, deer, iron, fur etc) and Russia gets more production per tile in the tundra so tundra mines get slightly higher production earlier on. The best russian starts are those that have grassland/plains nearby early on

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

But Australia gets recked in GS and in apocalypse mode because of natural disasters-when it wercks outback stations! Russia has no problem- its unit dosen't even get hurt in Blizzard

Yes, Russia's units don't experience any problem. You will still suffer pop loss and pillaged districts, though.

I tried some soothsayers on my own territory in my current game, thinking it would give me an advantage. Blizzards are apparently overlooked because the soothsayers' blizzards do add food to the occasional tile, but they wreck more than they are worth (see above).

 

[Kwami]

Yes, Russia's units don't experience any problem. You will still suffer pop loss and pillaged districts, though.

I tried some soothsayers on my own territory in my current game, thinking it would give me an advantage. Blizzards are apparently overlooked because the soothsayers' blizzards do add food to the occasional tile, but they wreck more than they are worth (see above).

All of the soothsayer's multi-turn disasters add yields to tiles. This is intentional and confirmed by Carl (Firaxis QA).

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

I honestly think Russia and Australia make bad comparisons, since they approach the game completely different. The closest link they have is they both have the possibility of stellar holy site adjacency, and can both leverage Work Ethic like no other.

Russia is faith from turn one (early pantheon and religion), a classical golden age with Monumentality, GWAMs up the wazoo, and Cossacks with Grandmaster's Chapel and heavy pillaging.

Australia is about super adjacency (+8 districts), tall coastal cities, massive production with the LA and Outback stations, liberating cities.

I have no idea where this comparison even started.

 

[Revanchist]

I honestly think Russia and Australia make bad comparisons, since they approach the game completely different. The closest link they have is they both have the possibility of stellar holy site adjacency, and can both leverage Work Ethic like no other.

Russia is faith from turn one (early pantheon and religion), a classical golden age with Monumentality, GWAMs up the wazoo, and Cossacks with Grandmaster's Chapel and heavy pillaging.

Australia is about super adjacency (+8 districts), tall coastal cities, massive production with the LA and Outback stations, liberating cities.

I have no idea where this comparison even started.

It stemmed from discussing top tier civs after the recent patch.

Turn 229 91 science and 54 culture for John Curtin
I honestly expect higher yields at this stage of the game, moreso for John Curtin.
Sorry to burst your bubble I honestly think you don't really know how to play the game or where I am coming from if you are getting only 200+ science nearing turn 500.



Yes in fact I acknowledge that (high adjacency bonus) is what makes Australia shine. It is a good ability but you need to have some mastery over appeal mechanics to understand how to ability works. Do I chop trees? Do I want to raise the appeal, or do I want to lower the appeal? How should I place my districts to maximise the appeal or yields, or should I just ignore some of the less important yields? Should I place a mine for production despite lowering my adjacency bonus. I dont think its as straight forward as plopping districts.

Precisely because of the tundra bias they can get high early faith generation, early pantheon and a much more consistent game play. Maybe it is my play style but I come to realise that faith is a even stronger resource early game since you expand much quicker with a classical/medieval (even renaissance) golden age. more builders = more wonders, more districts. More settlers = more yields.

It is not true that tundra is a complete wasteland. Some resource can spawn in the tundra (spice, deer, iron, fur etc) and Russia gets more production per tile in the tundra so tundra mines get slightly higher production earlier on. The best russian starts are those that have grassland/plains nearby early on

I have gotten 100 science in half of that time. Perhaps you need to work on your adjacency bonuses or have you not been using policy cards?

If you don't believe me, look at Potato Mcwhiskey's video

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

It stemmed from discussing top tier civs after the recent patch.

I know that. It was in this thread and you raised that question. It was more of a rhetorical questioning of why you would compare them in the first place.

 

[monikernemo]

It stemmed from discussing top tier civs after the recent patch.


I have gotten 100 science in half of that time. Perhaps you need to work on your adjacency bonuses or have you not been using policy cards?

If you don't believe me, look at Potato Mcwhiskey's video

I'm refuting your claim that Australia does whatever Russia can but better. First, I have pointed out that clearly, Russia has an edge in faith generation just from working tundra tiles. Australia relies on high appeal spots and unless you have plenty of those in your empire you would need to prioritise or think of ways to raise your appeal.

Edit:
Whats funnier is how you acknowledge John Curtin's LA and say that it is even more potent in higher difficulties and discredited Peter's LA saying that it only works at a higher difficulty. And you posted a game where you have 200 odd science at turn 400 and advised me to work on policy cards.

 

[oSiyeza]

Holy hyperbole Batman. You paid $50+ for a series of DLCs, only the first of which has been delivered, and which had two Civs.

Sure this is a smaller than usual patch which only addressed two small sections of the game and a minor game mode, but boy were people putting high expectations on it. There's always next month people. And the month after. And the month after that.

$50+ plus??
I paid $35, which is totally not $50+

Moderator Action: Please do not engage in Public Discussion of Moderator Actions (PDMA). PDMA removed. leif

 

[bitula]

All of the soothsayer's multi-turn disasters add yields to tiles. This is intentional and confirmed by Carl (Firaxis QA).

Except maybe flood? Yesterday I flooded my river with a Soothsayer: lost population, damaged unit and had zero yields gained. Anyone can confirm?

I have everything except the NFP, including all the DLC

I am waiting for a bit more to be released before shelling out for that, it feels light on content for the price personally

I have always sort of loved civ, but things such as below really break immersion a tad
View attachment 560866
this is the sort of thing that breaks immersion for me, i mean- why?

I've NEVER seen AI place cities so close together. I actually thought so far this is not even possible, since at least 3 (or 4?) tiles distance is required per placement rules? Perhaps you have some mods installed? In my last 4 games all cities were placed at least 5 tiles apart and several 6 or 7 apart, same way as I would have placed them and all placed on river when possible. Or maybe it has to do something with map type? I am playing on continents always, since I can imagine other map types are not very well balanced.

 

[trev1972]

I found australia extremely easy to play (i played them tsl and map admittedly was insane for them) and agree on russia

I am surprised there is zero love for pericles however, the abilities synergise really well and i had stupid culture output quite early.

Admittedly i am not a deity player.

 

[Bibor]

Australian UA is incosistent and incompatible with mines, quarries, floodplains and jungles.
I blame it on the half-baked appeal mechanics, tho, not australia itself.

 

[Bibor]

I am surprised there is zero love for pericles however, the abilities synergise really well and i had stupid culture output quite early.

Pericles is great but if you really want early fast culture, take another look at Rome, especially with a culture luxury spawn.

 

[Kwami]

Except maybe flood? Yesterday I flooded my river with a Soothsayer: lost population, damaged unit and had zero yields gained. Anyone can confirm?

Floods aren't multi-turn disasters. I'm not sure if the single-turn disasters provide yields when they're created by soothsayers.