Just a Janitor

[Bronx Warlord]

By Col. James Moschgat, 12th Operations Group Commander

William "Bill" Crawford certainly was an unimpressive figure, one you
could easily overlook during a hectic day at the U.S. Air Force
Academy. Mr. Crawford, as most of us referred to him back in the late
1970s, was our squadron janitor.

While we cadets busied ourselves preparing for academic exams, athletic
events, Saturday morning parades and room inspections, or never-ending
leadership classes, Bill quietly moved about the squadron mopping and
buffing floors, emptying trash cans, cleaning toilets, or just tidying
up the mess 100 college-age kids can leave in a dormitory. Sadly, and
for many years, few of us gave him much notice, rendering little more
than a passing nod or throwing a curt, "G'morning!" in his direction as
we hurried off to our daily duties.

Why? Perhaps it was because of the way he did his job-he always kept
the squadron area spotlessly clean, even the toilets and showers
gleamed. Frankly, he did his job so well, none of us had to notice or
get involved. After all, cleaning toilets was his job, not ours. Maybe
it was is physical appearance that made him disappear into the
background. Bill didn't move very quickly and, in fact, you could say
he even shuffled a bit, as if he suffered from some sort of injury. His
gray hair and wrinkled face made him appear ancient to a group of young
cadets. And his crooked smile, well, it looked a little funny. Face it,
Bill was an old man working in a young person's world. What did he have
to offer us on a personal level?

Finally, maybe it was Mr. Crawford's personality that rendered him
almost invisible to the young people around him. Bill was shy, almost
painfully so. He seldom spoke to a cadet unless they addressed him
first, and that didn't happen very often. Our janitor always buried
himself in his work, moving about with stooped shoulders, a quiet gait,
and an averted gaze. If he noticed the hustle and bustle of cadet life
around him, it was hard to tell. So, for whatever reason, Bill blended
into the woodwork and became just another fixture around the squadron.
The Academy, one of our nation's premier leadership laboratories, kept
us busy from dawn till dusk. And Mr. Crawford...well, he was just a
janitor.

That changed one fall Saturday afternoon in 1976. I was reading a book
about World War II and the tough Allied ground campaign in Italy, when I
stumbled across an incredible story. On September 13, 1943, a Private
William Crawford from Colorado, assigned to the 36th Infantry Division,
had been involved in some bloody fighting on Hill 424 near Altavilla,
Italy. The words on the page leapt out at me: "in the face of intense
and overwhelming hostile fire ... with no regard for personal safety ...
on his own initiative, Private Crawford single-handedly attacked
fortified enemy positions." It continued, "for conspicuous gallantry and
intrepidity at risk of life above and beyond the call of duty, the
President of the United States..."

"Holy cow," I said to my roommate, "you're not going to believe this,
but I think our janitor is a Medal of Honor winner." We all knew Mr.
Crawford was a WWII Army vet, but that didn't keep my friend from
looking at me as if I was some sort of alien being. Nonetheless, we
couldn't wait to ask Bill about the story on Monday. We met Mr.
Crawford bright and early Monday and showed him the page in question
from the book, anticipation and doubt in our faces. He starred at it
for a few silent moments and then quietly uttered something like, "Yep,
that's me."

Mouths agape, my roommate and I looked at one another, then at the book,
and quickly back at our janitor. Almost at once we both stuttered, "Why
didn't you ever tell us about it?" He slowly replied after some
thought, "That was one day in my life and it happened a long time ago."

I guess we were all at a loss for words after that. We had to hurry off
to class and Bill, well, he had chores to attend to. However, after
that brief exchange, things were never again the same around our
squadron. Word spread like wildfire among the cadets that we had a hero
in our midst--Mr. Crawford, our janitor, had won the Medal! Cadets who
had once passed by Bill with hardly a glance, now greeted him with a
smile and a respectful, "Good morning, Mr. Crawford." Those who had
before left a mess for the "janitor" to clean up started taking it upon
themselves to put things in order. Most cadets routinely stopped to
talk to Bill throughout the day and we even began inviting him to our
formal squadron functions. He'd show up dressed in a conservative dark
suit and quietly talk to those who approached him, the only sign of his
heroics being a simple blue, star-spangled lapel pin.

Almost overnight, Bill went from being a simple fixture in our squadron
to one of our teammates. Mr. Crawford changed too, but you had to look
closely to notice the difference. After that fall day in 1976, he
seemed to move with more purpose, his shoulders didn't seem to be as
stooped, he met our greetings with a direct gaze and a stronger "good
morning" in return, and he flashed his crooked smile more often. The
squadron gleamed as always, but everyone now seemed to notice it more.
Bill even got to know most of us by our first names, something that
didn't happen often at the Academy. While no one ever formally
acknowledged the change, I think we became Bill's cadets and his
squadron. As often happens in life, events sweep us away from those in
our past.

The last time I saw Bill was on graduation day in June 1977. As I
walked out of the squadron for the last time, he shook my hand and
simply said, "Good luck, young man." With that, I embarked on a career
that has been truly lucky and blessed. Mr. Crawford continued to work
at the Academy and eventually retired in his native Colorado where he
resides today, one of four Medal of Honor winners living in a small
town.

A wise person once said, "It's not life that's important, but those you
meet along the way that make the difference." Bill was one who made a
difference for me. While I haven't seen Mr. Crawford in over twenty
years, he'd probably be surprised to know I think of him often. Bill
Crawford, our janitor, taught me many valuable, unforgettable leadership
lessons.

 

[IglooDame]

Thanks for posting that, BW. It made my day.

 

[dgfred]

Great story Bronx! , you never know who will be a guiding light in
your life, sometimes it is the unexpected . Off topic-- for some
reason I always thought you were in your 20's . Keep your military
stories rolling in, I will enjoy them thoroughly .

Sorry, I didn't read the start closely (not by you) but keep 'em coming
anyway. I apologize about the age statement. Regards, Greg

 

[Bronx Warlord]

More you ask for? More you shall have.

 

[Bronx Warlord]

A Mission Inspired By a POW's Persistence
N. Va. Soldier Earns An Overdue Honor

By Steve Vogel
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, July 8, 2002; Page B01


Rocky Versace's friends will be there today at the White House. The high school buddies from Alexandria who decided they had to do something to honor Versace, dead now 37 years. The postal worker from Cleveland galvanized after reading about Versace's ordeals. The members of the West Point Class of 1959 who picked up the fight for their classmate. The family he left behind.

Versace, an Army captain from Alexandria executed by his Viet Cong captors in 1965, when he was 27, is to be posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor today by President Bush for the extraordinary resistance he displayed under terribly cruel conditions. He will become the first Army soldier to receive the award for his actions while in captivity, defense historians say.

That Versace is now being honored is due in no small measure to those relentless friends.

"The effort to get this guy the medal was itself heroic and displayed the same kind of persistance that Rocky had," said Stuart Rochester, deputy historian for the Pentagon and co-author of a history of POWs in Southeast Asia.

They faced daunting odds: The fact that Versace is the first soldier so honored reflects a stigma within the Army to being a prisoner of war, defense officials say. Versace also was a victim of the politics of the Vietnam War. Finally, the two soldiers who were held captive with Versace died in the intervening years, making corroboration of his heroism more difficult.

Today's ceremony culminates a series of events over the Independence Day weekend that brought Versace belated recognition.

On Saturday, in the neighborhood where Versace grew up, several hundred people turned out for the dedication of the Captain Rocky Versace Plaza and Vietnam Veterans Memorial, in honor of all 65 Alexandrians killed in the war.

"Rocky was our friend. He was a soldier," retired Army Brig. Gen. Pete Dawkins, a West Point classmate of Versace's, said in the keynote address. "He was killed because honor, duty and country meant more to him than life."

Versace's father, Humbert Versace, died brokenhearted within a few years of his son's death, and his mother, author Tere Versace, never stopped believing her son would emerge from the jungle. She died in 1999. For those remaining -- including his brother, Dick Versace, an NBA general manager -- grief has now been tempered by gratitude.

"One of the things that has been continually amazing to me is how this has captured so many imaginations and so much energy," said another brother, Stephen Versace, a University of Maryland administrator. "People have actually put their lives on hold to make this happen."

He thinks he knows why: "It's the memory of Rocky and what he went through."

Humbert Roque Versace was less than two weeks from leaving Vietnam when he was taken prisoner. Versace, raised in a Catholic family in the Del Ray neighborhood of Alexandria, had been accepted into the priesthood and planned to return to Vietnam as a missionary for children.

Serving as an intelligence adviser for the South Vietnamese army, Versace was captured along with two other Americans in October 1963 near U Minh Forest and held within the mangrove and swamps of the Viet Cong stronghold. He tried to escape four times and resisted all attempts to be indoctrinated by the Viet Cong and, for this, was often kept in irons and gagged inside a bamboo cage.

"He told them to go to hell in Vietnamese, French and English," one of Versace's fellow captives, Dan Pitzer, who died in 1997, told an oral historian. "He got a lot of pressure and torture, but he held his path."

Versace, his head swollen, his hair white and skin yellowed by jaundice, was pulled around villages with a rope tied around his neck by his angry captors. Villagers were astounded by his defiance , according to Jack Nicholson, a retired Army officer who searched for Versace.

In September 1965, Hanoi Radio announced that Versace had been executed in retaliation for the killing of suspected communist sympathizers.

Another prisoner who had been held with Versace, James "Nick" Rowe, escaped in 1968 after five years of captivity. Meeting privately with President Richard M. Nixon the following year, Rowe requested that Versace receive the Medal of Honor, describing how the captain had deflected punishment from other captives.

Nixon hugged Rowe and told liaison officers to "make damn sure" that Versace receive the medal, one of the officers, retired Col. Ray Nutter, said in an interview last year.

The Army would issue Versace only a Silver Star. While the other services approved Medals of Honor for POWs, there was resistance in the Army to awarding prisoners. The decision also reflected a desire not to highlight casualties, owing to the antiwar climate in the United States. "There was an attempt to play it down for political reasons," Rochester said.

Rowe kept telling Versace's story until 1989, when he was assassinated by communist rebels while serving in the Philippines as a U.S. military adviser to that country.

But others kept Versace's memory alive. A group of Alexandria high school friends, some of whom had known Versace as boys and gathered once a month for a book club, picked up the mantle.

"It started with these guys who'd get together and drink beer and talk about books on Civil War history," said Stephen Versace. At a gathering in early 1999, talk turned to a school Alexandria was building at Cameron Station, a former Army installation. Somebody said naming the school after Rocky would be appropriate.

The Friends of Rocky Versace was born. Soon supporters were at grocery store parking lots circulating petitions. "We really did not know what to say to them," said Alexandria City Council member David G. Speck (D). "Frankly, they seemed a little flaky, and we assumed they would gradually go away."

They did not. They soon made a critical alliance with Versace's West Point classmates and linked up with other Versace supporters, among them Duane Frederic, a Cleveland postal worker who had read Rowe's book about his captivity, "Five Years to Freedom," and had been struck by Versace's actions.

"I'm one of these people who wants to know the rest of the story," Frederic said.

Frederic traveled to the National Archives and other information repositories, spending hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars to hunt for records and corroborating information in a quest to honor a man he had never known.

"He became Rocky's historian," Stephen Versace said.

Among the critical pieces he uncovered were interrogations of North Vietnamese defectors telling of Versace's resistance and the consternation it caused his captors.

At the Army Special Forces Command at Fort Bragg, N.C., where Rowe's talks about Versace's heroism had made a deep impression on many officers, Maj. Bobby Seals was ordered by superiors in 1998 to revive the Medal of Honor effort. "Honestly, I looked at it, and I thought, 'There's no way. The three guys who were in the POW camp were all dead. How the hell are we going to pull this off?' " Seals said.

But using the information compiled by Frederic, a new Medal of Honor package was submitted to the Pentagon by the Special Forces Command in January 2000. Influential members of West Point's Class of 1959 privately pushed the nomination with senior Army officers.

The nomination still faced a struggle at the Pentagon. "It was apparently a close call because of the lack of corroborating evidence," Rochester said.

But the corroboration dug up by Special Forces and Frederic, and the campaign waged by the classmates and Friends of Rocky Versace, proved decisive. In January 2001, the Army approved the package.

In the meantime, the school-naming effort in Alexandria was defeated, but it evolved into the memorial plaza at the Mount Vernon Recreation Center on Commonwealth Avenue. Speaking to civic groups, holding bike washes and passing out information at the Alexandria Farmer's Market, Friends of Rocky Versace raised $250,000 for the memorial.

"Almost everyone they talked to would get roped in," Stephen Versace said.

One of those roped in was Speck, the skeptical council member who would become the memorial's leading proponent. Speaking at Saturday's dedication, Speck said, "I have never felt so fulfilled as to be part of this glorious endeavor."

At the dedication, a moment of silence honored Gary Smith, a member of Friends of Rocky Versace who was killed in the Sept. 11 attack on the Pentagon. At another event Saturday, Frederic and Mike Faber, president of Friends of Rocky Versace, were made honorary members of the Class of 1959, with more than 80 classmates in attendance.

"The more people who got involved with Rocky's story, the more compelling it became," Faber said. "The way he honored his commitment to our country, you can't help but be amazed by Rocky."

 

[dgfred]

More you ask for? More you shall have.

Terrific! Lurking forward to it .

 

[betazed]

Not to belittle the above-mentioned Mr. William's courage/act etc. but I have always wondered about something and wanted to ask this on CFC. Perhaps this thread is as good as any to ask.

Why do we glorify acts of soldiers in war?

Please consider where I am coming from. There have been many generals and warriors of claim. One mans hero has been another's butcher. From Chingis to Hannibal, Alexander to Pizzaro, their exploits have been noted and remembered thru history. But seen another way they have caused death and misery to untold millions; laid civilizations to waste. And backing up each of these conquerors/generals/heroes/butchers were the nameless footsoldier. Yes he was courageous, but a part of me almost feels that he would not have been. If he were not then he would not be a very good soldier and hence all these so called generals would have not been such glorified generals.

Perhaps it is people like Mr. William above who also have a little of a burden to bear of that crime against those millions.

Now for a moment consider if we did not glorify soldiery. In that case do you think the Vikings, or the Mongols or the Huns would have been that murderous? Would the Vandals have sacked Rome and got their name? Would Cortez have initiated the wiping out of the the Aztecs or Pizarro of the Incas?

Maybe all of these are because inherently we deify valour - which in other words is the channelling of individual ability to violence towards others. But is it not the time to realize it and hence stop deifying that? if we did then perhaps we would have less soldiers and maybe then we would have a little less ability to fight, and hence a little more inclination to think.

 

[Bronx Warlord]

A soldier from the 5th Special Forces Group received the Army's third highest award for valor in June for his actions during a January 2002 raid on a suspected al-Qaeda stronghold in Afghanistan.

Master Sergeant Anthony S. Pryor, a team sergeant with Company A, 1st Battalion, 5th SF Group, received the Silver Star Medal for his gallantry in combat. During the raid, he single-handedly eliminated four enemy soldiers, one in unarmed combat, all while he was under intense automatic weapons fire and suffering from a crippling injury.

"Receiving this award is overwhelming, but ... this isn't a story about one guy," Pryor said of the events that led to his Silver Star. "It's a story about the whole company.... If the guys hadn't done what they were supposed to do, (the mission) would've been a huge failure."

"I just did what I had to do," he said, recalling his hand-to-hand struggle against the suspected terrorists. "It wasn't a heroic act--it was second-nature. I won, and I moved forward."

During the ceremony, Major General Geoffrey C. Lambert, then-commanding general of the U.S. Army Special Forces Command, said that Pryor was a perfect example of the SF mentality.

"About a year ago ... I said to Tony, 'What did you think when that fellow knocked your night-vision goggles off, pulled your arm out of its socket and was twisting it, all while you were fighting with your other hand?'" Lambert said. "And (Pryor) said, 'It's show time.' He must have meant what he said, because he earned that Silver Star. Think about a cold, black night; think about fighting four guys at the same time, and somebody jumps on your back and starts beating you with a board. Think about the problems you'd have to solve--and he did."

"This is the singular hand-to-hand combat story that I have heard from this war," Lambert added. "When it came time to play, he played, and he did it right."

On Jan. 23, 2002, Pryor's company received an order from the U.S. Central Command to conduct its fourth combat mission of the war--a sensitive site exploitation of two compounds suspected of harboring Taliban and al-Qaeda terrorists in the mountains of Afghanistan.

Because of the presence of women and children within the compounds, Pryor said, aerial bombardment was not an option. Once on the ground, the company was to search for key leadership, communications equipment, maps and other intelligence.

Sergeant First Class Scott Neil, an SF weapons sergeant, was one of Pryor's team members that night. He found himself momentarily pinned down by a sudden hail of bullets after the team's position had been compromised.

"After the initial burst of automatic weapons fire, we returned fire in the breezeway," Neil said. "After we heard the words 'Let's go,' everything just kind of kicked in."

Moments later, though, the team became separated in the confusion, but with the situation desperate for the SF soldiers against a determined and larger-than-expected enemy force, Pryor and one of his teammates kept moving forward, room to room. They began entering a room together, but another enemy soldier outside the room distracted Pryor's team member, who stayed outside the room to return fire.

Pryor first encountered an enemy soldier who charged out of the room; he assisted in eliminating him. Then, without hesitating, Pryor moved into the room. There he found two enemy soldiers at the back of the room firing their weapons at his comrades who were still outside the compound.

"I went in, and there were some windows that they were trying to get their guns out of to shoot at our guys that hadn't caught up yet," Pryor said. "So I went from left to right, indexed down and shot those guys up. I realized that I was well into halfway through my magazine, so I started to change magazines. Then I felt something behind me, and thought it was (one of my teammates)--that's when things started going downhill."

Pryor said it was an enemy soldier, a larger-than-normal Afghan, who had sneaked up on him. "There was a guy behind me, and he whopped me on the shoulder with something and crumpled me down." Pryor would later learn that he had sustained a broken clavicle and a dislocated shoulder during the attack.

"Then he jumped up on my back, broke my night-vision goggles off and starting getting his fingers in my eyeballs. I pulled him over, and when I hit the ground, it popped my shoulder back in," Pryor said. When he stood up, he was face-to-face with his attacker. Pryor eliminated the man during their hand-to-hand struggle.

Pryor had now put down four enemy soldiers, but the fight wasn't over yet. "I was feeling around in the dark for my night-vision goggles, and that's when the guys I'd already killed decided that they weren't dead yet."

Pryor said that it was then a race to see who could get their weapons first, and the enemy soldiers lost. He left the room and rejoined the firefight outside. When the battle ended, 21 enemy soldiers had been killed. There were no American deaths, and Pryor was the only soldier injured.

The announcement of the award and the circumstances surrounding it shifted an intense public focus onto Pryor, who took every opportunity to shift that focus from himself onto his team's efforts in the successful raid.

"Tony is getting a Silver Star because he entered a room by himself, and he engaged the enemy by himself," said Sergeant First Class James Hogg, an SF medical sergeant on Pryor's team. "He elevated his pure soldier instinct and went to the next level, and that's what this award is recognizing. He didn't stop after his initial battle, and continued to lead."

Leading his soldiers, despite his injuries, is something Neil said that Pryor couldn't seem to stop doing. "As soon as he left that room, he came running up to me and wanted to know if everybody was okay," Neil said. "He never mentioned anything about what went on ... and during the whole objective and as the firefight continued, he never stopped. He was always mission-first, and that's what his Silver Star is all about."

Pryor is the third SF soldier to receive the Silver Star Medal for actions during Operation Enduring Freedom. The other two, Master Sergeant Jefferson Davis and Sergeant First Class Daniel Petithory, also of the 5th SF Group, received their Silver Stars posthumously.

 

[Bronx Warlord]

Master Sergeant Gary I. Gordon+Sergeant First Class Randall D. Shughart

Citation: Master Sergeant Gordon/Sergeant First Class Shughart, United States Army, distinguished himself by actions above and beyond the call of duty on 3 October 1993, while serving as Sniper Team Leader, United States Army Special Operations Command with Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia. Master Sergeant Gordon's sniper team provided precision fires from the lead helicopter during an assault and at two helicopter crash sites, while subjected to intense automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenade fires. When Master Sergeant Gordon learned that ground forces were not immediately available to secure the second crash site, he and another sniper unhesitatingly volunteered to be inserted to protect the four critically wounded personnel, despite being well aware of the growing number of enemy personnel closing in on the site. After his third request to be inserted, Master Sergeant Gordon received permission to perform his volunteer mission. When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Master Sergeant Gordon was inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a pistol, Master Sergeant Gordon and his fellow sniper, while under intense small arms fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members. Master Sergeant Gordon immediately pulled the pilot and the other crew members from the aircraft, establishing a perimeter which placed him and his fellow sniper in the most vulnerable position. Master Sergeant Gordon used his long range rifle and side arm to kill an undetermined number of attackers until he depleted his ammunition. Master Sergeant Gordon then went back to the wreckage, recovering some of the crew's weapons and ammunition. Despite the fact that he was critically low on ammunition, he provided some of it to the dazed pilot and then radioed for help. Master Sergeant Gordon continued to travel the perimeter, protecting the downed crew. After his team member was fatally wounded and his own rifle ammunition exhausted, Master Sergeant Gordon returned to the wreckage, recovering a rifle with the last five rounds of ammunition and gave it to the pilot with the words, "good luck." Then, armed only with his pistol, Master Sergeant Gordon continued to fight until he was fatally wounded. His actions saved the pilot's life. Master Sergeant Gordon's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon, his unit and the United States Army.

 

[IglooDame]

Why do we glorify acts of soldiers in war?

A very good question. The answer is that we ask our soldiers to defend us, so remarkable accomplishment in fulfillment of that request is presumably laudable. We (mostly) consider our culture/society/government to be the superior one, so actions taken by it are considered either defensive or bestowing a gift of civilization upon the conquered opponent; either way the soldier is doing a good thing and should he do it particularly well then so much the better.

 

[Bronx Warlord]

Why do we glorify acts of soldiers in war?

If you want to find out, pick up a rifle and stand a post.

 

[Bronx Warlord]

BENJAMIN L. SALOMON

Official Medal of Honor Citation: Captain Ben L. Salomon was serving at Saipan, in the Marianas Islands on July 7, 1944, as the Surgeon for the 2d Battalion, 105th Infantry Regiment, 27th Infantry Division. The Regiment's 1st and 2d Battalions were attacked by an overwhelming force estimated between 3,000 and 5,000 Japanese soldiers. It was one of the largest attacks attempted in the Pacific Theater during World War II.

Although both units fought furiously, the enemy soon penetrated the Battalions' combined perimeter and inflicted overwhelming casualties. In the first minutes of the attack, approximately 30 wounded soldiers walked, crawled, or were carried into Captain Salomon's aid station, and the small tent soon filled with wounded men. As the perimeter began to be overrun, it became increasingly difficult for Captain Salomon to work on the wounded.

He then saw a Japanese soldier bayoneting one of the wounded soldiers lying near the tent. Firing from a squatting position, Captain Salomon quickly killed the enemy soldier. Then, as he turned his attention back to the wounded, two more Japanese soldiers appeared in the front entrance of the tent. As these enemy soldiers were killed, four more crawled under the tent walls. Rushing them, Captain Salomon kicked the knife out of the hand of one, shot another, and bayoneted a third. Captain Salomon butted the fourth enemy soldier in the stomach and a wounded comrade then shot and killed the enemy soldier.

Realizing the gravity of the situation, Captain Salomon ordered the wounded to make their way as best they could back to the regimental aid station, while he attempted to hold off the enemy until they were clear. Captain Salomon then grabbed a rifle from one of the wounded and rushed out of the tent. After four men were killed while manning a machine gun, Captain Salomon took control of it. When his body was later found, 98 dead enemy soldiers were piled in front of his position.

Captain Salomon's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty are in keeping with the highest traditions of military service and reflect great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army.

 

[betazed]

@Igloo: So you are saying that his actions are laudable because he provides a service to the nation. But lots of people provide service (even at the continual risk of life and limb). So why should a soldiers be any exceptional and any different?

If you want to find out, pick up a rifle and stand a post.

Seeing there is no dearth of people to do that on my behalf, no thanks. But let me also add a few lines of Browning here {do they make you read Browing in the military? if they don't they should.}

There's many a crown for who can reach,
Ten lines, a statesman's life in each!
The flag stuck on a heap of bones,
A soldier's doing! what atones?
They scratch his name on the Abbey-stones.
My riding is better by their leave.

 

[Bronx Warlord]

Seeing there is no dearth of people to do that on my behalf, no thanks.

I'm not suprised, and considering your attiude, that you enjoying sleeping under the blanket of freedom someone else provides, then you question the very manner in wich they provide it.

By the way, your welcome.

 

[Gothmog]

Good answer IglooDude, but I think it all too logical. Humans are much more emotional than that. Also, we do not glorify most things that people do particularly well. See the Janitor story above for an example. No one cared that he was a good Janitor - only that he had been overcome with blood fury in the heat of battle and with no regard for personal safety single-handedly attacked
fortified enemy positions. Because he succeded he was lauded, if he had been killed without affect it would have been a waste of a soldier.

I think it is closely related to why we pay athletes so much, and almost worship them. It is the pure physical nature of the act, and the relationship to violence, we respond in a visceral way to this sort of physical display.

If we do not glorify them, we must vilify them, and thus vilify ourselves.

 

[betazed]

I'm not suprised, and considering your attiude, that you enjoying sleeping under the blanket of freedom someone else provides, then you question the very manner in wich they provide it.

Reminds me of some lines to the same effect from a movie. I think it was Jack Nicholson who said it in "A few good men". Seeing that his character missed the point I am not surprised you have either.

 

[IglooDame]

@Igloo: So you are saying that his actions are laudable because he provides a service to the nation. But lots of people provide service (even at the continual risk of life and limb). So why should a soldiers be any exceptional and any different?

In my opinion, soldiers are no different and no more exceptional than others that also provide a service to their nation at continual risk of life and limb. I personally am as full of praise for the police officer as I am for the soldier, and to a lesser extent for the firefighter only because their opposition does not oppose them intelligently.

I think the perception is skewed toward the soldier because #1 there are more opportunities to be heroic in a war than in the same period of time on patrol in a city and #2 the soldier (usually) opposes an enemy more organized and determined to return the favor than the police officer does.

 

[betazed]

In my opinion, soldiers are no different and no more exceptional than others that also provide a service to their nation at continual risk of life and limb. I personally am as full of praise for the police officer as I am for the soldier, and to a lesser extent for the firefighter only because their opposition does not oppose them intelligently.

I think the perception is skewed toward the soldier because #1 there are more opportunities to be heroic in a war than in the same period of time on patrol in a city and #2 the soldier (usually) opposes an enemy more organized and determined to return the favor than the police officer does.

So even if I take your personal pov (which I am sure is not the usual pov - I doubt our man Bronx here would have teh same respect for me if i became a police officer) that a police officer and soldier should have equal praise (almost) then it seems to me that you are equating the amount of risk undertaken to serve to the amount of praise deserved.

if so then why should we not look at risks undertaken by others? Also what about all the support staff in the military who do not take risks? Surely, then they are not at all deserving of praise? And surely not the generals sitting in the hardened bunkers?

See the point is risk taken by a soldier during war may be great, but i can argue that it is only fleeting. Cumulated over years a businessman also takes a lot of risks (possibly more than a soldier - cumulative mind you) and he runs a business and provides for a familiy and possibly many families. So why is that risk less deserving of praise?

 

[Bronx Warlord]

The point is you obviously understand nothing about what it means to be a soldier. Yes that was from a movie, and it fits perfectly with your comments. You ever serve? you ever step into a combat zone? no you have no. Yet your so quick to make remarks about the action and deeds of men who have, as if your opinion on what they done matters. It does not.

Let's take a look at some of your statements were your hardcore socialist politics shine through, shall we?

Perhaps it is people like Mr. William above who also have a little of a burden to bear of that crime against those millions.

So your saying the fact this man put it all on the line in a war against the Axis powers, has a burden to bear? How about the crimes of the Axis against the millions, and his part in putting an end to it?

Now for a moment consider if we did not glorify soldiery. In that case do you think the Vikings, or the Mongols or the Huns would have been that murderous?

Yes, do you think glorifying obvious acts of heroism and self sacrafice is wrong? Then I guess your some wacky pacifist who dosen't belive in violence. Here is a little secret... I'm not crazy about it neither, yet sometimes who have to go to the gun.

Maybe all of these are because inherently we deify valour - which in other words is the channelling of individual ability to violence towards others. But is it not the time to realize it and hence stop deifying that? if we did then perhaps we would have less soldiers and maybe then we would have a little less ability to fight, and hence a little more inclination to think.

Haha were to start with this one...

Valor is hardly " the individual ability to violence towards others " by the way for someone that is so big on logical thought, you could improve that sentence. If you think that is all there is to Valor, you should look the word up sometime.

Less Soldiers? um... paid entertainers outnumber our entire military by about 20:1, that's not enough for you? Are postal service is five times the size of our Marine Corps, that not enough for you?

Thinking... ah yes, cause no one ever thinks before comitting troops to combat actions Mabey all your thinking has brought us some of the most destructive wars in history?

You obviously just don't get it and that is fine, not everyone does. World peace is a joke, and it ain't never going to happen. You want to put your head in the sand and act like everyone really loves one another and all this war and chaos in the world is the resault of five guys who run the whole show go ahead. I for one have no doubts about mans destructive ways, and I have no doubts about why we have war in this world.

 

[betazed]

I think it is closely related to why we pay athletes so much, and almost worship them. It is the pure physical nature of the act, and the relationship to violence, we respond in a visceral way to this sort of physical display.

I completely agree. I am trying to see how many people can get to see this and call a spade a spade and realize that seen one way "glorifying a soldier" is also "glorifying nothing but pure violence".