KRYS03 - Deity Sumerians - C3C

Preturn:
No need to change anything.
This is my first try on C3C. Those civ heads looks kind of funny :D
Portugal has already 7 cities :crazyeye:

1 - 2110BC
Ur: Endiku ->Endiku
Kisurra founded. ->Endiku

2 - 2070BC
Win: Endiku (hp 1/3 left) vs 2/2 barb warrior +25 gold gained.

3 - 2030BC
Tax collector in Sumer. Growth in 2 settler in 2.

4 - 1990BC
Ur: Endiku ->Settler

5 - 1950BC
Sumer: Settler ->Worker

Hittites completed the Oracle

6 - 1910BC
Kisurra: Endiku ->Barracks

7 - 1870BC
Sumer: Worker ->Settler

8 - 1830BC
:sleep:

9 - 1790BC
Der founded. ->Endiku
Rush built city close to capital as there were Portugal's settler nearby. It most likely would have take land W of Ur.

10 - 1750BC
IW researched. There is Iron on mountain near Ur.

Next player:
I didn't trade techs. We could buy Alphabet for 200 gold or 12 gpt.
Remember to check Sumer. It needs 3 food on 1725BC to build Settler on 1700BC.
 
Mmmh, Kuningas, I don't know if you are new to SGs, so I'm gonna tell you a few things.

First, please, tell us that you are about to play, before you actually do it, so as everyone knows it, and so we could prevent another player to play the same turns at the same time. To tell us, just post a "got it" message each time you get the game. Of course once the roster will be clearly known, we will expect you to play at particular times, but right now amirsan could have played as well.

Second, if you had read the 1st post carefully (as stated in my latest post !), you would have known that you were granted 20 turns to play for your 1st round ! I have such rules, because this is a standard game of sorts, and it allows players to have time to take early decisions and get a real feel of the game. So if you agree, you're welcome to play another 10 turns right now. :goodjob: (please tell us you'll do it !!)

Last but not least, I have a few comments on your turns (and your log).
I don't want to force people to write very detailed logs, but yours misses one important thing : how we do in expansion terms. We're basically in full expansion mode, and we have no idea how big our cities are, if you carefully manage the cities regarding settlers, workers... In Deity it's very important, and by just reading the log, we can't see it. And I don't have the time (nor the energy) to check everything each 10 turns by opening the save.
Like this tax collector in Sumer : what was he here for ? If it was to prevent Sumer from growing to size 7, it would be OK (even though I think putting an entertainer instead and slow down the lux slide would be better...?), but we don't know that, so we can't judge your move, and so (the most important) we can't learn a tip or two (we miss an experiment here). I'm talking for players who don't feel very comfortable with such things, here.
Worker in Sumer : we wanted Sumer to be our settler factory and made everything possible to do so before (mainly Greebley's work), so why a worker ? Again if it has to do with the city's growth, we should know about it, so as to comment on it, and LEARN. Maybe it was a wise move, but we won't know, do you get it ? ;)
You rush-built a city close to Ur, due to Portugese presence. OK. But could we actually see where you placed that city ? Maybe it is very badly placed, maybe not. We can't know (except if we all open the save). You should try to post images from the game, like we do in SGs (press PrintScreen, paste the image in Paint eg., then save as .JPG, and upload it here like a save, and finally use the IMG button). Also you can put the save link in the same post as your log's. Maybe you just forgot here. ;)
You didn't trade techs, well you didn't buy any, that is. But you'll have to, if you play another 10 turns. Remember to pay most of the deal with lump sum, as we don't need gold except for tech buying, and it is cheaper to buy something with lump sum than with gpt sum (the AIs want their cash NOW).

Well, I didn't mean to be harsh or anything with you. Just to tell you that you need to enhance your log, so as we can share points of view... :)
BTW, I know we should make a dotmap. What I usually don't like in my SGs is people placing cities according to their feelings, and it ends up in a little mess. We'll do a dotmap after Kuningas's 10 turns (and Kuningas, you can do one too).

And all of you, please read the 1st post ! :lol:

Kuningas : up for another 10 turns
 
This is my second SG. I'm still "SG newbie".

I didn't post "got it" message since I looked this thread instant before my turns. I see your point here.

I believed that 20 turn rule is for first player only. I verified 1st post and saw "We will all play 20 turns in the 1st round, and 10 turns from then." :) I'll play my extra turns willingly.

I know lack of details in my log. I'm learning this part of the SG's. Perhaps I should read experienced SG players' logs more often.

Like this tax collector in Sumer : what was he here for ? If it was to prevent Sumer from growing to size 7, it would be OK (even though I think putting an entertainer instead and slow down the lux slide would be better...?),
Click to expand...

It prevented growth to size 7 and I reduced lux rate to 20% IIRC. C3C have enhanced scientists and tax collectors. I got 1gpt more with collector + 20% lux rate than entertainer + 10% lux rate.

I built worker to improve shield production in Sumer's tiles. 5 spt isn't enough for 4 turn settler factory.

I'll make dot map and play my turns tonight.
 
Originally posted by Kuningas
It prevented growth to size 7 and I reduced lux rate to 20% IIRC. C3C have enhanced scientists and tax collectors. I got 1gpt more with collector + 20% lux rate than entertainer + 10% lux rate.
Click to expand...

OK, I quote that because it really shows what we want to do in this game : getting new habits. I was almost sure of my point of view if this game was played with PTW, but, you're right, C3C has changed. I just forgot about this issue. Why ? Because this is my 1st C3C game, of course !

What we want to do in this game is to give more details than usual about the new C3C stuff. In this case, Kuningas, you could have provided us with all that was related to the new tax collectors in this situation, what you basically did in your latest post. ;) Now, I see that sometimes it will be better to have a tax collector than an entertainer, something that was almost never the case before.

About the worker in Sumer, we already had 2 of them working there ; why did we need a 3rd ? If 1 or 2 workers went off to somewhere else, that could be a :smoke: because we wanted them to set Sumer as a settler factory.

As for writing good SG reports, just lurk the ones we write in this game ! ;)
 
I can actually see the point of the worker. Even with two, i was still behind with getting us up to the required shields. With mining taking 6 turns, it can take time to get things set up. We probably needed something like 36 worker turns just in mining to get to the point of being able to crank out the settlers.

I have seen this in other games I have played. When you are short on shields, you have 2 choices. You can purposefully slow growth to not grow to size 7, or you can take 2 turns to get a worker. The worker option allows one to continue full production of food, with the worker helping to get to the required shields sooner. Basically, you get the settlers at pretty much the same time, but you have a worker you didn't have before.

The time to use it is when you have 5 or 6 shields and are building mines to get more. You can continue to grow every 2 turns instead of dropping to 3 to allow you to get to the 30 shields.

Kuningas,
I find I like to explain any decision that is a judgement call. Settlers and Enkido warriors are fairly obvious. Even things that seem obvious like building a culture building may not seem obvious to the reader because they may not see the town and realize culture will bring in a resource or lux. Other things you can mention is things that the AI does that effects us in some way. For example if that settler I saw blocked off the ability to build south at all you can mention it (I am assuming they did?).

Pictures can explain a lot too and save you from trying to describe where you put your city. If you have the later windows (it may even be 98 on), the paint program can be used to save jpg images. You hit the print screen, alt-tab or use the windows key and use the start menu (accessories, paint), use ctrl-v to paste. The image is too big (ppl like it under 800), so I save it as jpg, and then use the stretch/skew under the image tab. If you enter 78% for the horizontal & vertical you are just under 800.
Then save it again. The reason to save it BEFORE scaling as well as after is that when you save it as jpg you change how paint scales the image. The program starts out in bmp which is very bad at scaling and makes the text especially illegible. jpg is much better at scaling and so by saving it as jpg first you get a better image.

You may know all this or have a much better image program, but if not, I think the above is the most simple way to make images. The only other trick you might use alot is to use the square dotted line button on the top row. This allows you to grab a piece of an image. This is useful because a piece of the image doesn't have to be scaled. You click the square, put a box around it and hit ctrl-c to copy. You can then select new on the menu. If the white box looks too big for your cut piece, then I pick attributes under the image menu and set the image to 10 by 10 pixels (or any other small number). You then hit ctrl-c to paste (and if it asks, allow it to grow the picture to the size of the paste). Then just save it as a jpg.

You can of course also use the drawing features to make circles or arrows or what not.

Don't know if the above is useful, but there it is just in case.

Your turn sounds good (especially with the reasons for your decisions which I agree with). If you can post a picture at the end of your turn, that would be cool. Things change so much in 20 turns. No prob you can't or don't have the time though.

Krys,
I think I find 20 turns at the beginning for all players a bit too long. By the time Amirsan's turn comes around it will be 1000 BC and all towns will be in place and the map full. This means you and I got to place a single city each (and you only got one because you didn't go for the granary). I think the first player playing 20 and the rest playing 10 is better because then you and I get to participate more in the setup phase of our empire. I am not saying that 20 turns for the first player is bad or anything, it just that now that I have tried it, I think I prefer going to 10 turn rounds sooner.

[Edit: If anyone has better ways to use the silly paint program tell me. I would like a crop feature where I didn't have to cut and paste into a new image, or a way to make paint start in jpg (the first I have searched for and the second just occurred to me - I have never checked if it can be done).]
 
@ Teknoice : Hi ! You seem to be new here. Do you know what really goes on in SGs ? Have you already won on Deity or Emperor ? Do you agree with all that is said in the 1st post ? :D If so, then welcome aboard ! :goodjob: Please confirm, and please read all the posts until now if you join us...

@ Greebley : I understand your point of view, and I know it's not common to let everyone play 20 turns. I'll think about that. The thing was to let everyone play the same amount of turns (obviously), and to really influence the start of the game. But maybe it goes too fast. Maybe this could work for a large map ? Anyway, we'll carry on as is for the rest of the 1st round. But Greebley, I'll think about that in my future games, I think it should depend on the map size and the optional variant (more turns in OCC eg.).
For the worker, I can understand the point, but : why wouldn't Ur build the worker instead ? And sooner, so ? There must be a road between both cities now, so a worker in Ur could quickly get to Sumer's tiles to help his mates. Maybe Ur was too low on population ? Anyway, expansion must be carefully planned now. Let's wait for the dotmap at the end of Kuningas's turns. Everyone can make one or comment on one...

Once Kuningas has played his whole 20 turns, amirsan or Teknoice (if he confirms he wants to play) can pick up the game (say "got it !" :) )... for 20 turns.
 
Because the worker is nearly free in the best case (or even free)

The primary expense of a worker is the food. You take it from Ur and it drops in size and will lose a shield or two for every turn until it is size 6. Workers in Ur delay settlers by 10 turns. This is why at the start I said it was not the choice I usually make. The worker can wait. A worker is hugely expensive in Ur.

So in what case is the worker nearly free? If we are size 5 have 5 shields, and grow sin 2 turns. Assume we are going to get more mines soon though.

Case 1: Build worker + settler. the worker finishes in 2 turns putting us back at size 5, but then our mines are done and we build the settler in 4.

Case 2: Build a settler. Here we don't have sufficient shields. after 2 turns we have 10 shields toward our settler. But now we can't grow in 2. If we do we will reach size 7 before building the settler, which is bad. So we have to slow the settler down. It takes 5 turns since our mines come on line (otherwise it would be 6)

So our settler is a turn later in the first case, but we have an extra worker. This worker can even pay for itself by making its own improvements. If we have 3 squares to mine before getting to a settler every 4 turns and only 2 workers, then the worker will get that final square built sooner. If the extra work by the worker makes a turns worth of difference (so we have to slow the next settler down as well in case 2, but in case 1 the mines complete so we don't have a slow down and make the settler in 4 turns).

For this example, it would be:

Case 1) worker(2), settler(5), settler(4)
Case 2) settler(6), settler(5)

That is the free case. This is fairly rare. Still a single turn delay for a worker who then may speed up some other towns growth can be worth it. I didn't step through the turns so I am not positive this was the case, but my best recollection of my ending turn makes it likely that the worker was bought with at most a turn delay.

The point is that food is more valuable than shields, and by switching to a worker, you continue to grow every two turns. To build a settler would require one or more times you have to purposefully slow down growth.

Anyway that is the theory. Kuningas would have to confirm if this was the case.

[edit: Hello Teknoice :) Hope you can join us. Five players would be nice.
 
Well I'm not exactly new to this site :D I did register when Civ 3 first came out. I've been playing the game off and on since then.

No I havn't played a SG before but i've been reading many threads and I believe I know how they go down ;)

I also play on high difficulty levels.

I'll read up and study the current situation.

Nice to meet you all now let's win! :cool:
 
20 turn period is too much at least on this size map. Krys founded 1 city, Greebley 0, me 4 cities, 4th 2-3 cities. In spite of that we should stick on 20 turns in 1st round.

@Greebley. I know how to use images. Remember Justben's last SG. JB01 - Generic random deity
I use Jasc PSP 7 with it's a lot of better than paint. It has layers, jpeg optimizing etc. You can dl trial version from http://www.jasc.com/download_4.asp

I confirm reasons for worker. I considered it pretty much same way.

@Teknoice. Welcome on board.
 
10 - 1750BC
It's now worth to make some trades.
Portugal: 205 gold for Alphabet.
All 3 rivals have writing and they are at least 5 techs forward.
Slider 8.0.2 as all possible techs are researched by AI.

11 - 1725BC
Ur: Settler ->Enkidu

12 - 1700BC
Sumeria: Settler ->Settler
new Settler to south. Lux rate to 30%

Dutch city Utrecht's borders expanded.
13 - 1675BC
We have 3 Enkidus scouting.

14 - 1650BC
Sumer can't build settler in next two turns. One grassland needs to be mined. It will be mined in two turns.
Sumer product 6spt + 2 corrupted shields. In 4 turns it products 24 shields (+4 due growth). I don't know yet how corruption is calculated in C3C. It's second far est city to Ur at distance 5.
Off topic about workers:What I did: Turn1: to move 3 workers to grassland. Turn2: 2 workers mining and one roading finished in 3 turns. Turn5: 3 workers used road to move two tiles. Turn6: 3 workers mining in 2 turns. Total 8 turns and all Sumer's tiles are mined. Alternative moves: Turn1: 2 workers to 1st grassland and one to other. Turn2: All workers mining. Turn5: 1st grassland mined moving 2 workers. Turn6: 2 workers moving. Turn7: 2 workers mining. Turn8: Mines completed. Neither that would have all mines completed in time. Maybe Sumer should had build 4th worker it would only had delayed settler production by turn. /off topic

back to the game. Sumer's settler production delayed to complete in 3 turns.

15 - 1625BC
Ur: Enkidu ->Enkidu
Kua founded between two Dutch cities. Eindhoven and some other covered by fog. We want later to raze Dutch's Eindhoven. Kua ->Worker
Marad founded E of Ur. Marad: Barracks

16 - 1600BC

Eindhoven's and Lagos' borders expanded
17 - 1575BC
Sumer Settler ->Barracks (We can build our settlers on Sumer. There aren't many city places after all)
Settler moving N.

Dutch's completed Pyramids.
18 - 1550BC

19 - 1525BC
Could buy writing but not without gpt deals.

Hittites's completed The Statue of Zeus
20 - 1500BC
Now we have border neighbors on east, south and west. We shall start war asap. Next player should concentrate on military mainly. Corruption is starting to hurt Sumer. Sumer can't build settler on next turn. We have other city at same distance Maybe it causes extra corruption?

We have only 4 techs (pottery, Alphabet, IW and BW). Mass catapults + Enkidus / archers would be nice (bombarding targets units first when attacking cities on C3C). We could self research Masonry in 7-10 turns and then buy mathematics from AI (Hittites built Statue of Zeus so they have it). Don't know how well that strategy do. Although AI may have Knights when we got mathematics :lol:

Take a look at dot map below year 1500BC. Opinions about the dot map accepted.




-----------------------------------------------------------------------
1500BC Save
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Load it up...
Pre flight checks:
1500 BC

I'm going to research masonry and eventually
buy warrior code. Need some to build offensive units.

Kuningas is right.. we need a war soon.
We're squished between civs and we can't wait till the AI gets
fuedilism. I'm worried about Kua too, hope it doesn't become
a victim of a culture flip!

I'm going to continue to expand to the NE and E
(closing off the gap.) Maybe 2-3 more cities then I'll stop.
The dutch will probably get most of the northern area anyway.
So let's see. Gonna build a couple more workers too. We need more.

ok..
GO!

Set slider to 2.8.0
We'll get Masonry in 8 turns while gettin +2 gpt.

1 - 1475 BC
Move Settler + Enkidu Warrior (*EW*) E
Leave EW at east waiting for a settler
Move two EWs back home from Portugal territory.

2 - 1450 BC
Sumer builds Settler ---> Settler
Moving Settler NE

3 - 1425 BC
Kua worker finishes road
Move Kua worker to mine grassland
Move workers to build road between Der and Ur

4 - 1400 BC
Kisurra builds barracks ---> Worker
Byzantine city of Constantinople completes Great Lighthouse

5 - 1375 BC
Kua builds worker ---> barracks
Move worker to mine Game near Kua
An EW is trapped in between Portugal territories :( have to leave
him there for now.

6 - 1350BC
Move worker to mine grassland near Ur
Set slider to 5.5.0

7 - 1325 BC
Ur builds Barracks ---> Worker
Sumer builds Settler ---> Worker
Move new settler N

8- 1300 BC
Masonary researched!
Set slider to 10.0.0
We have 200 gold and now getting +18 gpt
Kisurra builds worker ---> EW
Move new worker and start building road to Iron

9- 1275 BC
Everyone is asking for 218 gold and 7gpt for mathematics! :o
I decide to hold off for a bit. I can't wait for iron forever
and I don't wanna keep building EW's so I buy Warrior Code for 170 gold. It's not getting any cheaper than that.
Ur builds worker ---> Archer
Move new worker to build road between Enkidu and Kisurra
New city: Kuara! Starts to build EW.

10-1250 BC
Portugal demands 21 gold.. I pay.
Worker builds road near Kua
1 of 2 EW returns home from portugal territory, stays at Sumer.
Worker moves to build mine near Der

11-1225 BC
Ur builds EW ---> Archer
New city: Kuta! Starts to build EW
Mathematics is still a bit too much for trading: 16 gpt and 64 gold.
Worker mines grassland near Der

12-1200 BC
Der builds Barracks ---> Archer
Marad builds Barracks ---> Archer
Worker builds road near Kua

13-1175 BC
Sumer builds Archer ---> Worker
Kisurra builds EW ---> Archer
Worker chops down forest near Kua

14- 1125 BC
Ur builds Archer ---> Archer
Worker moves to mine grassland at Ur
Worker irrigates grassland at Ur in order to irrigate plains for Der

15- 1100BC
Sumer builds worker ---> barracks
New worker moves toward Marad

16- 1075BC
Our last EW in Portugal territory returns home.
Mayan city of Chichen Itza completes Mausoleum of Mausollos

17-1050BC
Not much a couple moves.

18- 1025BC
We now have iron to most cities!
Ur builds Archer ---> Swordsman
Marad Archer ---> Swordsman
Der builds Archer ---> Swordsman
Worker builds Road near Ur
Worker completes road between ur and Marad
Worker irrigates near Marad
Workers move to irrigate toward kisurra
Kuara builds EW ---> Worker

19- 1000BC
Worker irrigates near marad
Worker mines grassland near Ur
Worker chops down trees near Der

20- 975 BC
not much
Mathematics are can be traded for 266 gold and 4 gpt

Our Puny Civ:


I hope things get better :cool:
--SAVE--
 
Our empire is looking good albeit a bit disjointed. No wonder Orange (Netherlands I think) has been crowding us - they had no land. Fighting them will be interesting with our towns intertwined.

Ya, it occurred to me you knew all that after I posted Kuningas :blush: Guess I got carried away :crazyeye: I think I would like a better program than the paint. It is missing certain features I would really like to have. Ah well, maybe some lurker will find it useful.

Amirsan, I guess that makes you up. You finished the SGs you mentioned? I have a vageue recollection of you being sick?? Or am I hallucinating that? In any case, keep us informed :)
 
Err, hum... well, welcome aboard then, Teknoice !! :D It seems you are an experienced player, so that's OK for you to be here.

Well, I don't have much time to comment, but one thing comes to my mind : WE NEED A WAR !!! :lol: I thought we were off for a builder game, but as always the AI makes it interesting for the human players to play. Look at the situation : there are 7 civs including us on a standard map, and we are 3 civs packt like sardines in a crushd tin box ! (reference here ;) ) So we have 2 options : either we research like mad (we're scientific), either we don't research or just this or that, build up our treasury and army, go to war, and ask techs for peace after a while. We're on the way to option #2, and there's no way to go back...

I understand what you all said about extra workers, I just didn't go through the very details, but I get the point. Why is it hard to figure it out ? Because it takes time and energy to do such maths, and I do so much already in my games ! :rolleyes:

Well, amirsan, if you can say hello here... Please say "got it" or you could be skipped. We haven't heard of you since the beginning of the game.
 
Preturn: Daaaamn, its already 975BC! This is the first time I touched this game! So I look around in this save to see whats left for me to do... I change the luxury rate to 20% and Sumer without an Entertainer for more food. Food is more valuabl right now than gold, with food sinse we are going military mobiliazation we need a bigger population and if gold means alot then food with a better population produces more gold. So ultimatly, food is most important right now. The Dutch seem to have an army, I dont think archers will help much against horsemen so more Swordsmen are realy needed and for more swordmen in this lifetime we will need more food and population for more shields.

Turn 1: The Hittite enter our lands aggresively, I dont know if they are planning an attack on us, but I take caution. Moved some archers toward them. I start deforesting in Ur. I dont have a clue of what is you guy's plans on trading techs, I dont know if everyone is willing to spend all of our gold and 3gpt for Writing, I wait anyways. I will wait to see if the Hitite attack us.

Turn 2: ooohhh, the Hittite are against the Dutch! I didn't know! :lol: Haha, okay, it looks like thier troops are moving to a front, maybe the Dutch would be more easier to attack sinse the Hittites have thier Three-Man Chariots. Kirsurra> Swordsmen. The Dutch have only one source of Iron which is north and unhooked. Three cities to the north look like they are protected by Warriors and thier military is directly south of Sumer. So aking caution that our offense should go north and defense goes south. The Dutch will find it hard to fight on two fronts though easier with Horsemen in which is thier main force as I can see. I hurry the barracks in Kua so we can build more defenses there fast in time for our war.

Turn 3: Ur: Swordsmen> Same. Sumer: Barracks> Swordsmen. Der: Swordsmen> Same. Kua: Barracks> Enkidu.

Turn 4: Sumer revolts, sorry. I buy Writing from the Hittite for 310g. Everyone else has Map Making, Philosophy and Code of Laws. I think that was a :smoke: move but what can I tell u...
I think we can have a shot on the Great Library if you ask me, so I go 60% on Literature which you may think is smoky too but if I start a Palace in Sumer now as a pre-build we can get it, Lit comes in 23 turns from now. If we do get it the game in technology will be a breeze and our bacward civilization will be advanced, I take the risk.

Turn 5: Nothing new.

Turn 6: Ur: Sword> Same. I will not start war on my turn, I will let the nex play do that sinse I will only play 10 turns not 20. My relatives from Puerto Rico is comeing tonight, I need to get ready.

Turn 7: Marad: Sword> same. Movd troops to the norther cities ready for an attack, not enough though.

Turn 8: The dutch force is realy crowding Sumer... Kuara: Worker> Curagh. We need another resorce connected becuase Sumer is haveng an unhapiness problem. For it to be Entertainer free it needs a 30% lux. which will cost us -9gpt. The Dutch are trying to hookp the iron though the road is going through our land in which we can easily destroy when they finish,,, hehe.

Turn 9: Der revolts, lux increased to 10%.

Turn 10: The Dutch are in the Middle Ages! The Dutch and Portugese. No trades possible that will benefit us anyways, this is why we need a Great Library.

I dont know what to do. I think I played a crappy set of turns anyways so I will not continue it. Next player should do much better of this situation.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/KRYS03-730_BC.SAV
 
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