Kyoto Accord Wonder-Discussed recently?

[New World Order]

The Kyoto Accord wonder thru Ecology bringing (around) 33.4% of the Civs with the highest GNP + pollution values a reduction in the negative effects of pollution. The city building it recieves further reduction of pollution, and extra shields for building industrial or pollution reducing improvements. (nuclear power plant is an example of both)

May trigger GA if not already experienced.

Any comments or rants?

 

[sennomulo]

I like it. It might be able to cut down on the constant worker shuffling associated with a pollution-heavy modern era (we all know how those are). I think it should be a Small Wonder though, so each country has to implement the treaty separately to reap the benefits as in RL, and other countries could just opt out altogether.

 

[brinko]

i have always advocated any benefit regarding the enviroment!
so im with it

 

[New World Order]

Cool thanks. I like the small worder idea was considering that too.

It would probably be better to introduce it with Recycling instead of Ecology, and a shiled increase may perhaps be justified in all pollution reducing improvements built by that civ, or on its continent.

I was assuiming the one building it has (around) the highest GNP + pollution values, but amount of manufactured goods should also play a role somehow in the equation, factoring in the nuber of active civs as well.

 

[dexters]

Kyoto is too political, and at the risk of starting a political debate, I suggest those who blindly support the protocol do a quick google search about the scientific debate on global warming to see that there's a substantial part of the scientific community, nobel winners included, who disagree with premise, the projections and the fearmongering that is being perpetrated by the politically correct camp of scientists and their incomplete environmental models.

 

[New World Order]

I think it should be a Small Wonder though, so each country has to implement the treaty separately to reap the benefits as in RL, and other countries could just opt out altogether.

I like this aspect sennomulo, this would solve the need for political debate, as the city that builds it gets benefits. It can also be a tactical type of industrial treaty, in essense, empires building together. It would require analysis as well, to study the true effect of Kyoto.

dexters, you can say the same thing about longevity (cloning), cure for cancer or even integrated defence. Thats civilization for you, it boils down to being able to produce it with shields, and having proper government. You dont have to agree with anyone, and your military can always destroy it.

And for the record, I don't blindly follow anything, what makes you think I care what some Nobel Prize winners think anyway? If you think Global Warming is real, I know scientists who say thats a lie.

 

[Babbler]

I remind you that if you like to discuss climate change, go to the Off Topic forum; there a giant thread waiting for you.

As for a wonder, I would like to be intergrated with the expanded diolomatic/ecology model. Maybe once you research a tech and have a ecological problems, you can built a small wonder to reduce climate change. There would be a diolomatic option which enforce it across nations.

 

[New World Order]

A neat diplomatic process Babbler, and I wonder if there could be enough clout for an 'ecological' type victory, due to the fact pollution will affect health in Civ 4, its sort of like having health care and such.

 

[thescaryworker]

What if there was a Great Wonder that greatly reduced pollution effects and increased sheilds, and after it was built, a Small Woner could be built, however they would have less impact.

 

[dexters]

dexters, you can say the same thing about longevity (cloning), cure for cancer or even integrated defence. Thats civilization for you, it boils down to being able to produce it with shields, and having proper government. You dont have to agree with anyone, and your military can always destroy it.

And for the record, I don't blindly follow anything, what makes you think I care what some Nobel Prize winners think anyway? If you think Global Warming is real, I know scientists who say thats a lie.

There's a reason Firaxis didn't include Terrorists in the Civ3 XP and they probably won't show up in Civ 4 either, even though they quite clearly play a role in the real world.

My first few words in my summed it up. It's too political, especially in the US, where most of their sales go to. An ecological wonder is fine, but calling it Kyoto is something else. And I wasn't the one who suggested that name.

 

[Aleph-Null]

One of the wonders for reducing pollution could be a Tokamak fusion reactor. Perhaps the ITER or a commercial Z-Machine. "The Hydrogen Fuel Cell" perhaps. As for Kyoto, its garbage. I'll personally help assasinate the bastard President that signs it or the ICC.

US out of UN now!

 

[DexterJ]

In Call to Power 2 you could sign treaties with other Civs where you agreed to both reduce pollution levels by a certain amount. Maybe Kyoto could be an option but as a kind of diplomatic option rather than one you build. Maybe it should be called something else as well so the americans wont get upset.

 

[New World Order]

Well, I believe in total nuclear war. Pure and simple.

As for the US getting out of the U.N., Mr. ken Scott, thats perposterus. Have fun assasinating your President.

Dexter, the name of it will offend many thats why I chose it, and you live in England so go meet your new King. Terrorists can be included with Espionage and Guerillas.

 

[DexterJ]

surely you bug them enough anyway with your free health care - you communists!!

 

[New World Order]

Yeah and we will give it all up to destroy or save this world. And kill lots of Indians.

Not all Commies have health care, and people don't have to build this (Kyoto), but you can conquor it if you wish, or destroy it. I'm not a fan of anti-WTO crap. Do you know how many lobby groups a ruling party in the U.S. has to cope with in a day?

At least people realize the aspect of a productive, pollution reducing mechanism and they dont have hydrogen fuel cells in the game. The designers are adding religion and civics to Civ 4 and pollution will affect health.

The U.S. has the Hoover Dam in real life, so do you not think I see each of your points? I also mentioned the idea of a Nuclear Power plant being both energy efficient and productive. Do you not think the Japanese are in the process now of building them? And that helps the U.S. Government (diplomatically with Japan) win against the Axis-of-Evil.

I appreciate your concerns, and would like ideas of how it could work, or how it would affect the game as a personal mod for example.

 

[New World Order]

Today China has a booming economy with one of the highest GNP's in the world. This rapid industrialization and modernization comes with a price, especially an environmental price. China is the world's largest user of coal with its resulting pollution, is rapidly increasing its fleet of automobiles with horrendous traffic jams in all the major cities, and is building the world's largest dam on the Yangtze river which will flood huge stretches of the river, displacing millions of people and burying countless historic artifacts. The dam is expected to help meet China's growing energy needs and is still a hotly debated question among environmentalists, historians, and policy makers.

http://www.isp.msu.edu/asianstudies/wbwoa/eastasia/China/geography.html

Any political prospect here I wonder? Not that Kyoto has to help the Chinese, but could it ever be used to contain them? How would it indirectly affect Taiwan, Haiti or Isreal? I understand the U.S. does not have to bother with it, as they are premier superpower status.

 

[Lockesdonkey]

This ties in to an idea that I've been refining:

Multilateral agreements. Intead of having a Kyoto Wonder, you can sign a multilateral pollution-reduction agreement with other nations. The diplomacy screen will be a bit difficult, but it can be managed...

I got the idea from someone's idea somewhere of the "commonwealth" which I took to mean an EU-style arrangement between civs, and from there, I thought of more.

 

[dexters]

Not that Kyoto has to help the Chinese, but could it ever be used to contain them?

China is a developing country and is thus not subject to the Kyoto protocol. I have more to say about this but this is not the place for it.

Multilateral agreements.

Already in the wishlist, along the lines of multi-party alliances. However, an ecological agreement that is multi-party may be better folded under the (hopefully) revised UN.

 

[mikehunt]

it should also reduce your production ability or gold revenue, since it real life it would hamper economies

 

[New World Order]

China is a developing country and is thus not subject to the Kyoto protocol. I have more to say about this but this is not the place for it.

Well China HAS ratified Kyoto. Russia and the EU will officiate it soon. It has two stages: one now and one in 2012. By the way..... It comes into effect on Feb.16th. That is three days from now!!! And thats wheather you like it or not...

"China is the dominant player. The country is on track to add 562 coal-fired plants - nearly half the world total of plants expected to come online in the next eight years. India could add 213such plants; the US, 72. It has approved the Kyoto treaty, but along with India has no obligation to cut carbon dioxide emissions during the pact's first phase to 2012, an exemption the United States says is unfair and one of the reasons it walked away from the agreement in 2001."

"That would really be political trouble for China," he said. "After the Kyoto Protocol they have no way to say this is only discussion or negotiation, but we don't need any action." With the start of the protocol on Feb. 16 likely to increase international dialogue on the environment, China may try to play a leading role as it seeks to boost its diplomatic profile to match its economic weight.

http://www.aluminum.org/Template.cf...tManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=8139

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol -check here for some info.