Kyoto Accord Wonder-Discussed recently?

[New World Order]

it should also reduce your production ability or gold revenue, since it real life it would hamper economies

The idea is to introduce reuseable energy and affordable environmental technological investment. Thats why I suggested the city that build it get a boost in shields when building: 'production increasing, or pollution reducing improvements' such as mass transit, (Japanese grav train) or Nuclear Power plants. (Non-pollutant energy- Solar Power etc.)

.....Shhesh, hope some of your kids choke on thick, black metallic smoke some day.

 

[dexters]

Well China HAS ratified Kyoto.

Most provisions of the Kyoto Protocol apply to developed countries, listed in Annex I to the UNFCCC.

China is not bound by the most important parts of Kyoto and Russia basically gets a free pass and its a profitable opportunity for them to trade in emissions but note their target of 0% emissions reduction.

The assumption that if you're out of Kyoto you're doing nothing is just plain wrong, and it assumes the projections about temeprature rises and the effect of carbon in the atmosphere is iffy as the evinronmental models being applied currently are half assed and scientists who support the idea that we're in trouble admit they simply don't understand all the variables in environmental change and their models simply don't capture them.

There's quite a healthy opposition in the scientific community about this with many scientists, rightly, that there is serious doubt whether the bleak scenarios painted are even true, and whether a better alternative would be to skew away from the 'conservative' environmental view of returning emissions to past levels, which isn't doable anyways even with Kyoto as China and India are not covered and will more than wipe out gains made by the industrialized nations, but whether adaptation would be better.

The idea is to introduce reuseable energy and affordable environmental technological investment.

Civ3 gives us mass transit, recycling, solar, nuclear and hydro plants.

The idea is already there if you bothered to look, and that is not really in debate. What is, is your assumption that a Kyoto wonder is somehow warranted and you've basically avoided my point, which is that its too political. An ecological wonder however, would be fine.

 

[New World Order]

I know the game has those things. Thats why the wonder should help you build them. I know its political, and you can call it: "human morons" I don't care. If there's an ecological wonder in the game, oh well. At least you dont mind the idea, I'm just not sure how it would work. I guess it's better to make my own mod than to deal with ANTI-GLOBALIZED, MEDIA DRIVEN IMBECILIES.

The new 'wonder' would cut pollution (somehow, maybe just for the Civ who built it), and (perhaps) add shields when building an environmental improvement (as I mentioned several times), to simulate a 'new emission reduction investment' and 'environmental technological advancement'. You'd still pay for their maintenance, you just dont HAVE to build them in the first place.

The Adam Smith CO. pays for ALL trade improvements, right? Well, Im not saying an 'environmental wonder' has to do that, but it looks as if not much else, aside from calling it 'Kyoto' gets people to understand, which is why I suggested the wonder in the first place.

Cure for cancer is a MYTH even though you waste your money on it, and integrated defence MAY NOT WORK IN REAL LIFE, but it's in the game. IF YOU BOTHERED TO LOOK.

On feb.16 2005 when Kyoto DOES take effect in real life, since you know SO MUCH about the U.N and world diplomacy, I would take notice. Perhaps Civ WILL BE BETTER without an environmental wonder that works as you suggest, I can still work on my own mod for use with my own games. Does chopping down trees affect the environment in civ or do they not breathe oxygen?

To have Russia at 0% emission, at least GETS THEM ON THE BANDWAGON. Without it they could nuke your PECIOUS AMERICA back to the stone age. Notice how America protests China's not having to reduce (during the first phase) emissions while building those new coal plants? Well, they are also being cited for reasearch on new environmental technologies of emission reduction.......AS IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!

Which brings me to the Axis-of-Evil....So, good luck with them.

 

[New World Order]

The assumption that if you're out of Kyoto you're doing nothing is just plain wrong, and it assumes the projections about temeprature rises and the effect of carbon in the atmosphere is iffy as the evinronmental models being applied currently are half assed and scientists who support the idea that we're in trouble admit they simply don't understand all the variables in environmental change and their models simply don't capture them.

There's quite a healthy opposition in the scientific community about this with many scientists, rightly, that there is serious doubt whether the bleak scenarios painted are even true, and whether a better alternative would be to skew away from the 'conservative' environmental view of returning emissions to past levels, which isn't doable anyways even with Kyoto as China and India are not covered and will more than wipe out gains made by the industrialized nations, but whether adaptation would be better.

I didn't say if you're out of Kyoto, you do nothing. I mentioned the U.S. is now on the reasearch side of things. A 'reduction to past levels' is theory, not the principle of Kyoto.

It's a goal for emission standard and they know its impossible to reach, but its a principle in general. (Coming into effect Feb.16 2005, phase II in 2012)

You must be an idiot to not see coal burning pollutes the atmosphere, a grade six chemistry student could learn that. I suppose you believe pharmaceutical company scientsits too. A good argument understands both sides: to not believe toxic chemicals pollute the air is one thing but that doesn't mean global warming is real.

Global warming is a catchphrase; this is target emission reduction to foster safe investment, development, and health strategies for emission-safe, power consumption among top nations, allowing scientists to develop better weapons, and implement more productive sources of power, that create less emissive harm. There are billions of ways to pollute earth, spoil humanity and steal their profits beside this.

I will mention the Axis-of-Evil again for effect......

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Trust me, Dexters, that in the US-as in Australia-what the government does or believes does not neccessarily gel with what the population believes. The vast majority of people in the US actually DO believe that global warming must be curbed, and that the US government is merely pandering to powerful fossil fuel lobbyists. In fact, many states in the US (again, as in AUstralia) are adopting the Kyoto principles in the ABSENCE of the Federal government-because it has been made clear that THAT is what their constituents want.
As for the 'debate', I think that this is divided up into two groups of people-the REAL scientists and climatolgists who believe that human activity is warming the planet, and the 'scientists' who are on the fossil-fuel lobby's payroll-much like those scientists-back in the 1950s and '60s-who were bankrolled by the tobbacco companies to tell us how smoking wasn't harmful to our health!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Oh and, on topic, I hope that multi-party treaties of ALL sorts will be a part of an improved diplomacy system, where you can invite as many people as you want to the table and encourage each of them to sign up to a treaty which another country sponsors. So, for instance, Germany-who has already used advanced energy and manufacturing technologies to reduce pollution-invites 8 of the other major nations to sign up to a treaty that binds each party to reduce their emmissions by 20% of what they currently produce. In return, all parties agree to pay a fixed amount of gold per turn-based on how much they reduce their pollution by.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[New World Order]

Thanks Aussie Lurker, A rational mind is always welcome.

I like how you said it: 'what the government does or believes doesn't neccessarily gel with what the population believes.'
Thats why I love Civ, and thats how Gov't works.

I also like what you said in the post about drugs, you've got knowledge my friend.

 

[TriangleMan]

The Kyoto Accord should be a small wonder that eliminates all pollution, but cuts all production in half.

 

[New World Order]

Like the small wonder idea, but those are pretty extreme implications, especially when using hydro power plants for example, that wouldn't really suffer a measurable production loss. Plus, civs would probably build their own solar frames and wind towers for residential use, and find incentive purchasing 'new' clean cars, freeing up more for energy for industries use.

Much pollution is also generated by automobiles and from societies needs in general, and so eliminating all pollution would be almost impossible.

This has been quite the debate, so all ideas should be welcome. Sorry for coming off as a real grouch too.

 

[dexters]

The Kyoto Accord should be a small wonder that eliminates all pollution, but cuts all production in half.

FYI, pollution will be radically altered in Civ4, so this discussion is probably all moot. Sadly.

As for multi-party treaties, its on the wishlist and I hope it goes in as well, but probably not in the format Aussie is suggesting. Closer to the military sort I suspect.

You must be an idiot to not see coal burning pollutes the atmosphere, a grade six chemistry student could learn that.

You're quite funny, coming from someone who hasn't done his research on the topic of global warming and gets his facts wrong and has to be corrected by your idiot forum friend. FYI, no one said pollution is not an issue, but we aren't talking about pollution are we?

I'm not going to say much more than that but you should google up the scientific debate on global warming, see the serious questions raised by other scientisits about the alarmists forecasts and how Kyoto probably would be pointless.

And FYI again, China opposes phase 2.

 

[New World Order]

Yeah, civs will probably die and be less happy with pollution I'm guessing.

 

[refill]

I'm not so sure that the specifics of Kyoto matter so much or that the actual, provable degree to which our pollution increases global warming matters either. It is important that for the first time people of every nation are seeing the problem and looking to address the situation in a unified way. The absence of the US and Australia matters because we all share the earth.

 

[New World Order]

Dexters, I HIGHLY doubt that you are anywhere even CLOSE to an expert.

And yes refill I agree.

I wouldn't be surprised if mainly Japan advances its technology and such. And, (as Aussie_Lurker said) Germany is advancing its own techs independantly.

So, lets hear your great reasearch dexters.....(I've never said I believe in global warming, and you can't prove it exists) I was talking about emissions. So please correct my 'wrong facts' you mentioned, as I dont recall any idiots correcting me aside from you.

And, I also liked how Aussie pointed out there are always scientists who say all kinds of crap, as you keep mentioning the 'great scientific debate', and I am saying its too late for that. Have fun at the gas pump..

Yes I know Civ 4 pollution will be different.

And FYI, so what about China? How about the USA (war on terror), or Palestine and Isreal?

And FYI again, who the hell cares what some moron with Google thinks? Fact is Kyoto is real now; so laugh, snicker and cop-out...It really doesn't matter what you think, your Gov't will cut you down ANY WAY IT CAN. (he he) And that includes all the 'unemployment' and 'wasted money' debates you support.