Large Map and New Civilizations are now playable

[Leoreth]

No, cities outside the core do not contribute towards your expansion limit.

 

[brett0007]

From what I've played Celts are next to impossible. The first two UHV are comparatively quite easy, you can raise Milan and Messina before the Romans spawn then its a matter of a galley in Bordeaux and two settlers to found in Britain and Ireland the issue comes with the roman conquests every time I lose the french city's I auto collapse on shaky, even if its still my GA from the first two UHVs and I've moved my capitol to Ireland/Scotland/Wales. For a start they have absolutely abysmal modifiers so much so you can barely settle southern France and a city in Iberia before the roman conquests start. So your not going to get UHV 2 and build up to effectively fight the Romans and there is some sort of bug preventing you from not founding Nemessos? On turn one otherwise you end up with absolutely no science at all in whatever capitol you found and since you cant pull out of the continent without collapsing im guessing its either impossible or a better player needs to try.

 

[banzay13]

In my attempt with Celts - then Roman spawn - all my core cite in Gaul and Iberia and in Greece (captured city) became independent and i collapsed.
UPD. Entered WB, settle Irland and Britain. Lost Eirope, but survive. I don't know how to setlle three cites and build galley. Even if you only chop - not enough time till Roman spawn

 

[brett0007]

In my attempt with Celts - then Roman spawn - all my core cite in Gaul and Iberia and in Greece (captured city) became independent and i collapsed.
UPD. Entered WB, settle Irland and Britain. Lost Eirope, but survive. I don't know how to setlle three cites and build galley. Even if you only chop - not enough time till Roman spawn

I managed by the skin of my teeth to pull off 2 by immediately switching to despotism, founding Bordeaux, two turns after Nemassos, then Santander 1N of Iberian cow then setting the workers to build a pasture on the horse so the galley can be whipped out, then set all my cities to settler while improving food resources to speed up settlers managed by about turn 212 to found Cardiff and Loch Somethingorother in Ireland. One you can get easy by upgrading your initial Oathsworn to city raider and park em on the forest hill 1E of the Olives near Nemassos. wait for independent Melpum to spawn and you can take it the turn it spawns, from there go down the Italian peninsula and in Sicily there should be another independent city you can raze before Rome spawns that nets you the two cities. and ideally you should if the rng went your way have three of your starting stack tped back to your capitol as rome spawns.

 

[CivEnthusiast]

On a second playthrough of the ancient era literally had to give Greeks several Hoplite units through the World Builder so that they didn't die from the Barbarians. But that apparently led to way less Bronze Age Collapse Barbarians in the Middle East in a butterfly effect I'm not sure, I saw no Sea Peoples invade Syria or Levant at all except for several units appearing west of Egypt after saving Greece. Then it also helped the Hittites to survive, making them extremely tough to be conquered later on as they simply spam the construction of the units. Wonder if it could be made so that Greece still collapses to the Barbarians during the Bronze Age Collapse but then it does respawn soon enough to represent the Greek Dark Ages in such a way.

Also I got the notification of that the Greeks were to invade the Persian heartland but the scripted event never came eventually, even as I went past the 330 BC - 290 BC turns while being at war with them as Persia. They did all work well for Rome though, wish I could switch to them at their 509 AD spawn as the "A new civilization is being born" prompt never appeared once again, but it did appear for Arabia this time, unlike in 1.17 where it was Arabia with this kind of an issue.

Another issue were the deserts all of sudden, as I was unable to pass into Egypt whatsoever literally most of the Ancient gameplay. This ruined for me an ability to conquer Egypt as Persia. And even more ugly situation was that as soon as I started playing as Arabia I couldn't move my military units out of Mecca literally because of them being unable to cross the deserts. Neither I could find the technology which would've unblocked an ability to cross the deserts.

One more thing to notice was that I didn't see the expansion cores any longer, no more green areas, just the core bright blue area and everything else is red which later on severely affected my Assyria gameplay apparently, as I was unable to maintain all the lands that I had to conquer for the goal without getting a collapsing stability soon enough, forcing me to release nearly all the conquered cities. Also the maintenance costs went up insanely crazily as I started succeeding with my Achaemenid Persian conquests, making me go practically bankrupt for several turns until I released a number of cities, lost several of my units and had to spend a plenty of time to build up the economy to some decent level. I don't think I can recall having the money issue triggered by the number of the conquered cities being as severe in 1.17 as now. Afraid to imagine how tough it would be for Russia gameplay, even more tough than in 1.17.

 

[AOS9001]

Afraid to imagine how tough it would be for Russia gameplay, even more tough than in 1.17.

It's pretty bad, until you get to the middle/late industrial era and you've got your land developed and kratorgas/courthouses/markets/banks/warehouses in all your cities. But that can be said of any wide civilization.

 

[mateyson]

One more thing to notice was that I didn't see the expansion cores any longer, no more green areas, just the core bright blue area and everything else is red which later on severely affected my Assyria gameplay apparently, as I was unable to maintain all the lands that I had to conquer for the goal without getting a collapsing stability soon enough, forcing me to release nearly all the conquered cities. Also the maintenance costs went up insanely crazily as I started succeeding with my Achaemenid Persian conquests, making me go practically bankrupt for several turns until I released a number of cities, lost several of my units and had to spend a plenty of time to build up the economy to some decent level. I don't think I can recall having the money issue triggered by the number of the conquered cities being as severe in 1.17 as now. Afraid to imagine how tough it would be for Russia gameplay, even more tough than in 1.17.

You can see the description of the tile when you hover the mouse cursor over it. The description with the historical zone will be visible to you in the lower left corner of your monitor screen.

 

[CivEnthusiast]

You can see the description of the tile when you hover the mouse cursor over it. The description with the historical zone will be visible to you in the lower left corner of your monitor screen.

Yeah I'm aware of that, my point was that I was trying to find an explanation to the stability issues that seem to be slightly different now

 

[stillblackadder]

Couple of thoughts on Kushans since it was my most anticipated civ on the new map. Played on Epic speed, Regent (tried heir first but the land is less developed so it becomes a bit more difficult even).
-- I like the first goal - it encourages you to stay pagan while building happiness religious buildings. Quite easy with Despotism whipping although there is a degree of luck in whether those religious buildings stay intact in the conquered Indian cities - they would need to be built elsewhere in that case. I did not see the religions spread on its own in my game so there is even a chance to build an ancient wonder in the capital to help with the culture goal.
-- UU is extremely good against archer-defended cities, especially with city raider promotions. It may struggle against Persia with its hills and spearmen but its cheap costs compensates for it in my opinion. AI may prefer elephants though (I notice them everywhere, even Dutch built some in New York at some point).
-- Still getting used to the new Barbarian / Independent mechanic. There is no barbs spawning in the Central Asia Steppe for some reason, so those cities can be left undefended. Huna horse archers in India may be a threat, but they kill themselves against couple of city defender whipped archers. Independents are odd though... In my last game China decided to go into Warring States Period - and I stayed at war with all independent cities - despite not having their units on my land and me not attacking them. It made Buddhist spreading goal a bit more complex with me having to spread it to Byzantines which is much more lack-based. Also - maybe it is worth to auto-generate roads in Tarim Basin when Silk road starts spreading there? Building them takes ages and it is actually quicker to get Missionaries to China via jungles in Burma.
-- Silk road goal is of the tough ones - SR does not spread to India cities so one needs 8 cities outside - and they are all non-core. Kashmir is easy to get - it is east-most (I didn't mange to get SR to "?"-named city east of Tarim Basin. You have two of flipped cities in the middle and get Herat via scripted war with Persia (they must be alive or you will lose it when they respawn) - and you need to get 4 more elsewhere. One can be founded on the desert tile in Afghanistan - but where you get 3 more is a choice. I went and took 2 from Persia and founded one North of Samarkand but it made me remain in collapsing for a while. Maybe founding 2 further north and one extra in Tarim is the way... Maybe this goal could be "Have SR in half/60%/70% of your cities)? It would allow for more careful balancing with India part of the Empire while keeping in mind the Culture goal.
-- Gold/Culture is the one I am currently stuck on. Need to learn how to balance the sliders and GPs, I guess.
-- As a side note - what about moving Samarkand Indy city one tile south? It would be Balkh - which is arguably more important with Indo-Greeks as Kushan predecessors - it would be a core city as well and give more space for founding in the north (and allow for easier conquest). Or would it make AI too stable?

 

[Leoreth]

On a second playthrough of the ancient era literally had to give Greeks several Hoplite units through the World Builder so that they didn't die from the Barbarians. But that apparently led to way less Bronze Age Collapse Barbarians in the Middle East in a butterfly effect I'm not sure, I saw no Sea Peoples invade Syria or Levant at all except for several units appearing west of Egypt after saving Greece. Then it also helped the Hittites to survive, making them extremely tough to be conquered later on as they simply spam the construction of the units. Wonder if it could be made so that Greece still collapses to the Barbarians during the Bronze Age Collapse but then it does respawn soon enough to represent the Greek Dark Ages in such a way.

I want to be clear that the Sea Peoples barbarians are not supposed to collapse Greece and are intended to be targeted more towards the Levant and Egypt than Anatolia and Greece. I am not sure what is off about them right now, but I am aware of this phenomenon and will address it.

 

[banzay13]

Independent now really tough. Playing with Khmer - independent city near Iron have xBow in 300AD, and full stak of them a bit late. Arabia got scientific method in 1170 and Turks could.t get even Persia before Mongols spawn.

Spoiler Good luck to Azteck here :

 

[Tigranes]

Relocating archers to the capital gave Rome 48 archers upon my Byzantine flip on 3000 BC start. Perhaps it was something else that placed so many free troops in Roman capital, but it does not feel right. Could you d

 

[Leoreth]

Relocating archers to the capital gave Rome 48 archers upon my Byzantine flip on 3000 BC start. Perhaps it was something else that placed so many free troops in Roman capital, but it does not feel right. Could you d

Can you share a save from before this occurs?

 

[Genghis Khaiser]

I was testing Germany and noticed that for some reason Austria founded Pisa, they also founded Prague right at my border.

While I agree that Prague should be featured, I will have to raze it since Wroclaw is within my core and Prague's tiles are already covered by other cities.

 

[DanLT3]

Hittites 3 UHV completed at Paragon/Marathon difficulty. UHVs quite easy.
With the new buildings and modifiers it felt like not much to build in the cities that was usefull.
Sure you could build troops and send them to death. But keeping them to long would hurt your economy.
Thus making reseraching the 2 needed techs hard (Bloomery and Contract).

 

[TsimTsigal]

I had no idea how close the game was.

A few more reports, duh, all were done on Regent/Normal/3000 BC start

BURMA

Not much to be said, you have a crazy core and pretty straightforward UHV (build the Paya, set the slider to 0%, get a GM, hope for Chinese to collapse to get Iron for bombards, conquer Indochina, and at this point you are pretty much a great power; adjust sliders to get more GPs, i ended the game with 2 extra gold ages, mostly because China built Eiffel Tower in Yunnan and collapsed from sheer ahistorical aneyrism). I must admit that my fears regarding SEA being overcrowded turned out to be at least partically true, both Burma and Vietnam have claustraphobic (yet rich in resources) cores. Also, the horse source near Pagan is covered in jungles (so no pastures there before Microbiology) yet obviously is set to let Burma use it's second cavalry UU.

CELTS

How could one describe the Celts? Jolly redheads who like to dance and drink ale? A sophisticated culture without writing that never got a chance to shine by its neighbours? A reclusive yet hospitable people of early Christians?

Perhaps. But not in RFC DOC.

In RFC DOC the Celts are what the Chaos from Warhammer aspires to be.

Culture? Buildings? Technologies? Who needs all this trash, weak southern peoples? You are here to bring the Word of the incoming Apocalypse - and the Apocalypse itself. The only techs you need are Bloomery to make your Dark Green Crusade easier (on the second thought probably you don't need even Swordsmen, Oathsworn are only a bit worse at city assaults but cheaper and more mobile) and Priesthood to spread the Word.

Building pastures and orchards? Perhaps later, to celebrate our victories, when meat and blood of fallen enemies shall be in a short supply. Until then, chop the trees. Chop greedely and recklessly, there are no Ents (afaik). And build Oathsworn, hordes of them. Economy? Who needs it when you are about to bring the entire civilized world to its broken knees? When the Romans get conquerors against Greece, make your own move. Italy is usually lightly defended, and Swordsmen with Combat 1 + Shock are more than up to the task of facing the Legions. Keep building more swordsmen (and don't forget 2 Settlers and a Galley to settle in the north, closer to the Dark Celtic Gods; as a side note, Scotland is marked as the Rise of England area yet doesn't flip). Keep sacking settlements to keep your economy afloat. Once Rome is gone visit Greece, then Carthage, then whoever you want - upon French spawn your mantle of the ultimate evil will be passed to them and you will collapse to the barren core of Scotland and Ireland, so don't bother too much with stability and economy. At some point Orthodoxy shall begin to spread - you have no realistic chance to found it, even in the ruined world you have created (in my game Ethiopia founded it by being the last civilization (among with Nubia) with cities in possible Orthodox spawn zone), instead arrange massive sacrifices to the New God by whipping His monasteries and make His Anointed Missionaries (don't forget to celebrate their anointments with more whipping) follow your troops on their trail of destruction, preaching to the few survivors left among ruins of the old world. Probably you won't have time to finish your ritual of 12 preachings before the French appear, in this case you'd better stick to Orthodoxy if possible, get OBs with England and Vikings and spam Orthodoxy preaching in their cities (since they will likely be Catholics, Orthodoxy will slowly disappear from their cities, and UHV3 doesn't check if you spread to different cities; probably even more trollastic way to achieve this would be Religious Persecutor + the other Christian denomination missionary combo... should you be able to get at least to the Middle Ages by 1000 AD, let alone Theology). There is also a small mistake in the UHV description: it's stated that you have to spread Christianity 12 times BY 1000 AD, but it checks if you have spread enough times IN 1000 AD (despite there is no way to lose the counter). I used this small bug to spread the Cult of the New God 13 times instead, which felt more appropriate.

As a side note - never used Celtic UP, save for healing before taking Carthage - which would fall either way. It's definitely one of the worst UPs in the game, being both boring and not particulary useful.

 

[Dracosolon]

My strategy for Celts was to use the first three Settlers to 1) settle in place in Nemausus (Menhir, Barracks, then spam Oathsworns), 2) settle on the Wine in Pannonia (Settler, then same as Nemausus) and 3) settle Santender in Spain, right of the Marble (Galley). Workers improve resources. Mediolanum is razed on spawn by starting units, then it's a function of building enough Oathsworns before Rome will get its conquerors - can be very tight timing. If you lose a city you'll collapse to Ireland.

Ideally you can conquer a Roman city, settle Ireland and Scotland, then abandon the mainland with your units. The alternative is to collapse Rome to deny them their huge second wave of conquerors, but then you'll have to deal with the barbarian yourselves and Orthodoxy and Catholicism will be much slower to spread - because Rome and likely Greece will have collapsed.

 

[banzay13]

From what I've played Celts are next to impossible. The first two UHV are comparatively quite easy, you can raise Milan and Messina before the Romans spawn then its a matter of a galley in Bordeaux and two settlers to found in Britain and Ireland the issue comes with the roman conquests every time I lose the french city's I auto collapse on shaky, even if its still my GA from the first two UHVs and I've moved my capitol to Ireland/Scotland/Wales. For a start they have absolutely abysmal modifiers so much so you can barely settle southern France and a city in Iberia before the roman conquests start. So your not going to get UHV 2 and build up to effectively fight the Romans and there is some sort of bug preventing you from not founding Nemessos? On turn one otherwise you end up with absolutely no science at all in whatever capitol you found and since you cant pull out of the continent without collapsing im guessing its either impossible or a better player needs to try.

I was able to do it. (well, i cheated. at 1000AD my missionary failed to spread religion in Kiev, so i added another one with WB)

So. Settle instead Bordeaux on Salt 2N, and chop 2 trees for galley, settle in Ireland and London. (on Epic speed you be just in time, with Bordeaux you can miss 1-2 turn and lost game). After capture Milan - move all your forces to Brest spot, they will stay with you after Roman spawn. I declared war to Rome (fliped city). Since my pack of Oathworns moce twice fast - i was able avoid Legions and capture Milan and Rome(!), after some time made peace for Rome as tribute with Romans)) And captured back from independent city in France. When settled city in Iberia and got 2UHV. Then fortify troops with woodman on hill with forest, so you can heal, while Rome will attack you (i killed 20 legion in 1st attempt, but reloaded and made peace to keep more troops alive). Then just wait for Rome collapse, and opportunity to capture city with religion). I got 1 city in Scotland (London got automatically Catholicism), 1 in Ireland. 1 in Norse (viking didn't found any more cites for some reason till 1000AD), 2 in France 2 in Spain, 2 in HRE, independet Budin, and 2 to Rus (last one was Kiev there i cheated). As you can see - i got Rome. You need city on continent, coz babrs longships will beat you. I was able to send 4 missionary from Ireland but it cost me 4 galley.
Good news - Scotland will not flip. Also you can settle at Brest area or free space in Germany/Denmark or Poland to spread religion. Settle, spread, and let barbs take them
Or. I settle Reykjavik, i forgot about it. Its also in historical area, bwt

UPD. Look like only in my game was BUG with my cites on continent switching to independent then Rome spawn? and i was forced move to Ireland to early?

 

[TsimTsigal]

I don't get why people have problems with settling Ireland and Britain; i haven't even settled Bordeaux (instead settled Bilbao in Iberia for Iron, UHV and more woods to chop). A few chops and whips (as Celts you have no reason to not whip whenever unhappiness allows) net you 2 settlers and a galley in matter of turns.

 

[Tigranes]

Can you share a save from before this occurs?

Here we go: