Last One Standing

Ronojoy1917

Warlord
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Jan 18, 2009
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235
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The Far East!!
While it's true that some smaller polytheistic religions continue to this day, like Shinto in Japan, Hinduism is the world's only major religion which is polytheistic. How come? Why have all the other faiths, (Greek ,Egyptian, Nordic, Aztec, etc.) that worshiped many deities been swept away and not Hinduism?
 
Monotheistic factions had more of a social grip on Scandinavia, Egypt, the Americas and Europe than they did on India and Japan.
 
You're forgetting Daoism.

I think the answer in the case of both India and China is that they're extremely large, extremely populous countries that already had long-standing and widely practised polytheistic religions by the time the monotheist ones turned up. Christianity and Islam both enjoyed considerable success in India at various times in history, but the place is just so big, and so full of people, that Hinduism wasn't greatly affected. It's rather like invading Russia: you can do it, and you can conquer a lot of territory, but there's just so much of it that it doesn't make much of an impression.
 
I have sometimes pondered the unifying effect of monotheism. The big polytheisms haven't really spread beyond the area they occupied two thousand years ago, whereas the big monotheisms have been steadily carving up the rest of the world between them.

Could there it be that monotheism is somehow more effective at ethnogenesis and state creation??
 
Would Kings prefer monotheism because it is easier for them portray themselves as god’s representative? Do Polytheisms have more centers of power which would make it harder for the king to use to unify the kingdom?
 
monotheism religions not any better than any polytheism religions

its just Christianity and buddistic line religions become more powerful than ceased religions doesnt matter on mono or poly that much
 
Monotheism, it seems to me, had its greatest successes in wiping out other religions by doing it at sword-point. Rulers in polytheistic polities would have little interest in messing with religion and destroying any particular one: polytheistic worshipers are tolerant by default, easier to embrace and absorb than to wage a religious war.

But rulers in areas with large monotheistic religions get bonus points in popularity from destroying the "wrong religions" around, at least if the monotheistic religion is the major one around. What saved Hinduism was probably that monotheistic religions in India never managed to become majority in large polities there and, given the near-constant state of warfare and danger of rebellions, even the muslim rulers had to tread carefully in religious matters. Though I recall reading that there were a few insane ones around...
 
Monotheism, it seems to me, had its greatest successes in wiping out other religions by doing it at sword-point.

The Roman Empire
Islamic Persia
Germanic Europe
Celtic Ireland
Sub-Saharan African

Surely those are arguably some of monotheism's greatest successes, and none of them at sword point.

Rulers in polytheistic polities would have little interest in messing with religion and destroying any particular one: polytheistic worshipers are tolerant by default, easier to embrace and absorb than to wage a religious war.

But rulers in areas with large monotheistic religions get bonus points in popularity from destroying the "wrong religions" around, at least if the monotheistic religion is the major one around. What saved Hinduism was probably that monotheistic religions in India never managed to become majority in large polities there and, given the near-constant state of warfare and danger of rebellions, even the muslim rulers had to tread carefully in religious matters. Though I recall reading that there were a few insane ones around...

These are the lines that I was thinking of. But there's a circularity in this argument, isn't there? India didn't become monotheistic because no large state became monotheistic. Well, why not?

Celts and Anglo-Saxons also lived in a "near-constant of warfare and danger of rebellions" in the 5th century, but they became monotheists. And why did the Malay regions switch, but not India? I can't see any mechanism to justify a large-scale pattern, but yet it appears to be there.
 
Monotheism, it seems to me, had its greatest successes in wiping out other religions by doing it at sword-point. Rulers in polytheistic polities would have little interest in messing with religion and destroying any particular one: polytheistic worshipers are tolerant by default, easier to embrace and absorb than to wage a religious war...

Monotheists are generally more violent to eachother than to outsiders, because disputes about theological disagreements are very easy to exploit for political gain, especially since most monotheist faiths claim absolute truth, whereas Polytheists don't. It isn't really a surprise that the most bloody religious wars were fought almost exclusively between/within Christianity and Islam.
 
Monotheists are generally more violent to eachother than to outsiders, because disputes about theological disagreements are very easy to exploit for political gain, especially since most monotheist faiths claim absolute truth, whereas Polytheists don't. It isn't really a surprise that the most bloody religious wars were fought almost exclusively between/within Christianity and Islam.

well Im not sure if its predominant factor is that its a mono religion having only one god being able to become most powerful religions. You could also have many gods and become in spite of that a powerful nation or emp
Also I doubt you could make any social grip with any religion unless you have always a people of mostly uneducated you can put grip on .... then yes
 
The Roman Empire
Islamic Persia
Germanic Europe
Celtic Ireland
Sub-Saharan African

Surely those are arguably some of monotheism's greatest successes, and none of them at sword point.

Persia was arguably already monotheistic before islamic times, as zoroastrism was a state religion. But Islam was imposed by the arab conquerors. The germans east of the Rhine were being attacked and forced to convert by Charlemagne's time (I think it was the saxons he clobbered). Then over the next centuries the slavs. Of celtic Ireland I know nothing, except that it was a pretty violent place anyway. The whole of sub-saharan Africa has not yet been forcefully converted to monotheistic religion, but it wasn't for lack of trying by islamic and christian fanatics!

As for the roman empire... while christianity initially spread peacefully, and even against imperial attacks, by the end of the empire some emperors and especially bishops were busy destroying by force any pagan cults left. The principle of "cuius regio, eius religio" is older than Westphalia, I guess!

Monotheists can certainly be violent over perceived "heresies", because they regard them as some kind of traitors. But also because they see a threat to their own particular dogmas from such heretics. And that fear of challengers also causes them to lash out against any polytheistic, or different monotheistic, religion that does not lie low.
In the history of european christianity, for example, we can see that at best they tolerated people quietly worshiping something else; if such worship became public and liable to make converts then war could very well be declared. That public/private distinction made the difference between suffering the presence of closed jewish or islamic communities (who did not proselytized), or wiping out the Albigensian heretics with a crusade. But even the quiet ones were targeted with small pogroms expulsions from time to time. But perhaps the size of such attacks depended more on political factors than on the nature of religious conflicts. It's open to dispute.
 
You really think that polytheistic religions aren't violent towards outside denominations? What about the Japanese campaigns against Christians, the treatment of missionaries by, well, pretty much every non-Christian tribe they met, the anti-Jewish pogroms by the pre-Christian Roman Empire, etc.? Religion tends to be violent towards outsiders, because people tend to be violent towards outsiders. It's simply the overall success of the two Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Islam, that gives the appearance of some sort of superiority - through force or persuastion - possessed by monotheism. And that success has next to nothing to do with religion.
 
You really think that polytheistic religions aren't violent towards outside denominations? What about the Japanese campaigns against Christians, the treatment of missionaries by, well, pretty much every non-Christian tribe they met, the anti-Jewish pogroms by the pre-Christian Roman Empire, etc.?
Not to mention the Roman campaigns against Druidism, Japanese attempts to impose Shinto on Korea, etc. etc.
 
You really think that polytheistic religions aren't violent towards outside denominations? What about the Japanese campaigns against Christians, the treatment of missionaries by, well, pretty much every non-Christian tribe they met, the anti-Jewish pogroms by the pre-Christian Roman Empire, etc.? Religion tends to be violent towards outsiders, because people tend to be violent towards outsiders. It's simply the overall success of the two Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Islam, that gives the appearance of some sort of superiority - through force or persuastion - possessed by monotheism. And that success has next to nothing to do with religion.

If you look long enough you can find violence nearly everywhere, of course. But I do think that overall monotheistic religion have been more violent. You are right that groups of people will be wary and often violent towards any outsiders, but when considering the role of religion in facilitating or providing motives for that there is a difference between polytheistic and monotheistic religions. Polytheistic religions can more easily incorporate foreign divinities into their pantheons, or find "similar" gods. And because they do not invest everything on the characteristics of any single divinity, and they are already used to a diversity of rituals, they can be more accommodating to differences in worship and ritual towards any particular divinity, more curious and willing to learn about new ones.

Monotheistic religions, especially the abrahamic ones, will take any other different monotheistic religion to be dangerous heretics, because the mere existence of another monotheistic religion is a denial of the correctness of their own rituals and practices: there can be only one! And they will take any other polytheistic religion to be false and misleading, and at the very least feel free to attack and insult it. My impression is that the anti-jewish pogroms in the roman empire happened because the jewish would happily denounce any other religions, instead of just going along with the motions of imperial worship and basically ignoring the whole thing in practice as other sects did. But I'll also say that trying to force statues of other "gods" on their temple was pushing it!

As for the japanese, it was a political thing, as the japanese realized that missionaries could be laying the ground for military attacks. They tolerated missionary activity well enough, allowing the number of converts to swell even despite the serious lack of missionaries trained in japanese, until the missionaries own spats (Franciscans vs. Dominicans) and portuguese preference for allying with and selling weapons to christian Daimyos showed that the possibility of political interference or even outright attack using a local "5th column" was real. An attack could not succeed, of course, the portuguese and the spanish were overstretched as it was, but interference was certainty on the cards: the mere fact that the portuguese king, not the pope, was the one appointing the bishops and priests for the east made it clear to the japanese that they were political tools of another polity with bases nearby. they might not have realized that detail initially, but the spanish Dominicans who arrived later made sure they did!

Oh, and missionaries' success with non-christian tribes was mixed: some attacked them on sight as they did all strangers, some accepted them and the missionaries went on to become essential bridges between colonial governments and tribes. In some cases they even set themselves and "their" tribes against those governments.
 
Not to mention the Roman campaigns against Druidism, Japanese attempts to impose Shinto on Korea, etc. etc.

Ok, fine, I get the point - religious violence is very often political and then it will matter little if it is monotheism or polytheism. I'll admit that.
 
What Lord Baal said*, and also:

Persia was arguably already monotheistic before islamic times, as zoroastrism was a state religion. But Islam was imposed by the arab conquerors. The germans east of the Rhine were being attacked and forced to convert by Charlemagne's time (I think it was the saxons he clobbered). Then over the next centuries the slavs. Of celtic Ireland I know nothing, except that it was a pretty violent place anyway.

I'm not sure these are right. I've been reading up and listening up on the Dark Ages recently, and was surprised at how peaceful these processes were. The Arabs did not expect (nor initially want) their new subjects to convert to Islam, and ex-Byzantine Europe was majority Christian until the 800s. I haven't seen details, but as far as I know the Persian conversion was equally relaxed. It's true that Germans in Saxony had a nasty time, but the Goths were Arians before they arrived on the shores of the Mediterranean. Re the Slavs, nobody forced the Bulgars or Russians to convert at a national level - they did it on their own terms, and got a sweet deal with their own patriarch. On an individual level, it may have been different: I'm sure some people converted under the threat of violence from their lords, but that's hardly a consequence of monotheism.

The whole of sub-saharan Africa has not yet been forcefully converted to monotheistic religion, but it wasn't for lack of trying by islamic and christian fanatics!

Can you cite some specific examples in sub-Saharan African? I don't know much about African history, but I don't think even the obnoxious Belgians, Rhodesians, or ?Zanzibarites tried this.

As for the roman empire... while christianity initially spread peacefully, and even against imperial attacks, by the end of the empire some emperors and especially bishops were busy destroying by force any pagan cults left. The principle of "cuius regio, eius religio" is older than Westphalia, I guess!

*After all, he should know about polytheism!
 
Re the Slavs, nobody forced the Bulgars or Russians to convert at a national level - they did it on their own terms, and got a sweet deal with their own patriarch.
Well, not the Bulgars. That was only temporary while Romanos Lakapenos was wiping out his rivals.
 
Ok, fine, I get the point - religious violence is very often political and then it will matter little if it is monotheism or polytheism. I'll admit that.
Bingo. This is quite often - though far from always - the case.

This does not discount fanaticism and communal violence, such as the near-routine-by-now episodes of 'let's-go-kill-the-infidels' that occurs amongst Hindus, Muslims and the other religions in India. There was a wave of it after the Mumbai attacks, but there's often absolutely no obvious reason for it. Just as there was no real obvious reason for Constantine I to convert to Christianity on the eve of his victory, no logic behind Julian the Apostate's anti-Christian crusade, no logic behind Mohammed's increasing violence towards Judaism in his lifetime.

You need to accept that "men of faith" often do genuinely do things because of their religious beliefs, including kings and emperors. Dachs mentioned the Rape of Magdeburg recently in another thread, which was a result of Tilly being more than a bit of a dick towards Protestants. There was no political reason behind that massacre - the Hapsburgs were actually quite against that sort of thing, as it made re-establishing their control harder to do.
 
At the time of conversion Bulgaria was contemplating wether to turn orthodox or catholic. Or, more correctly, wether to align with Rome or Constantinople. A lot of Slavs and Bulgars were already converted to catholicism by the time orthodoxy became the official religion. Both the patriarch and the pope were sending missionaries there at the same time.* Boris I was arguably in favour of converting to the western rites, but in the end geography and a military incursion by Michael III persuaded him otherwise.

The Christianization was a political act, not a religious one. At the time Bulgaria had been a recognized (by the Byzantines) polity for almost 200 years, but they were still treated as 'barbarians', because of their religion (which, interestingly in the case of the Bulgars, was monotheistic. Sort of). It was not just a case of wanting to fit in. 'Joining the fold' would lead to a significant increase in the exchange of knowledge and commerce between Rome/Byzantium and Bulgaria and would surely strenghten the authority of Bulgarian rulers and the state itself. It also served as an act of unification of the various Slavic and non Slavic tribes within Bulgaria. A lot of Slavs, as well as some Bulgars, had 'seen the light' even before the Bulgars crossed the Danube to stay in 680. The Slavs had already assimilated the Bulgars when it comes to language, so it was time to wipe out the religious differences between them and consolidate the powerbase. Yes Boris I did it voluntarily, but later his son Vladimir-Rasate reverted to the old ways, which only resulted in Boris' coming out of retirement to kick his son's ass and then blind him. And also kill the families of everybody who reverted back to whatever paganism they were into. Which kind of counts as enforcement by the sword.

* Fun fact, the papal legate to Bulgaria was pope-to-be Formosus, mostly famous for being dug up.
 
What was my point thoughhh
Im telling in my theory that Religion itself never told you to force everyone getting same belief or do any political actions. Its just the Misuse doing political things with it. Religions have other things to say than kill heretics, inquisitionate whatevaa.
Ethical and morale and so on being far more characteriscal.
 
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