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Leader / Civ Picking Thread

Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by Sommerswerd, May 26, 2012.

  1. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    well i don't really think there has to be some race/competition here between us...

    interesting save you provide.

    The question of granaries is complicated, it's true that with exp they cost only 30 hammers, but we should ask if even the city we build it needs one in early game and honestly the way you settled you would be better off just letting the cities grow to happy cap and not whip especially if plan is to work cottages.

    No doubts sury is king of building libraries/granaries.

    A lot will lie on the map, if someone can provide i am sure we will know which trait will be strongest ;-), but that is out of question of course.

    You have to understand that I am actually one of "anticottage" advocates usually (you could find plenty of evidence in S&T) and even made some Sg game with Sury, because I like sury and even then I advocate financial here.

    I tested the game with Pacal of Egypt and the early access to cottages is strong advantage and they would compete for BW time even when going with cottages first and working them.

    At turn 50 I had already 1 village and 2 hamlets (and I think they were close to villages), in aggriculture start they can basically start pottery and working first cottage around T15, that is super strong point for RB team.

    We will be right from start behind in commerce.
    We can't even match this start with Mansa since we don't have the "right" techs.

    Last thing, I didn't liked you had only 2 warriors... this test is run without barbs, the real game will be WITH barbarians and I assure you on Emperor 2 warriors will not be enough to fogbust/defend empire.
     
  2. bistrita

    bistrita Warlord

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    I didnt played SP for like 3-4 years , and i realy know plakos map , there will be space for 4-5 uncontested cities and after will be land wich will be disputed between civs, with some good resources there.

    Wasn't intented to be a competition , but i wanted to show the benefits of Surry , and i just wanted more peole to have an opinion about that.
    I think we agree that having a granary a cty grows twice as fast so there is a big point of hving those granaries, city grow fast works more cotages and when at max size start next roud of worker setler for expansion,like 8-10 turns faster which is alot.

    You cant beat pacal of egipt on this development with any of leaders but you can beat them diferently using other very powerfull combinations.

    If i replay and use marbel stat and some more fosused on micro(which for sure will do like ateam) i can get 3-4 wariour out for sure, and after finishibg granaries until city are growing all will build wariours axeman.
    You got me wrong, i am not aticotage at all, but i consider using surry we will develop way faster and working many more grabing land easier and avoid unpleasent borders pop and nighmares when we have to plant cities.

    We can go with other leader but when will se ourself having half of the leader Crop yeld, and waiting at least 10 turns for a border to pop, and libraries taking alot, well then you'll remeber Surry and regret him.

    I realy dont like arguing, usualy i was telling 2metra what i think and i expecetd him to write them here , but seeing him its not around i thought as part of the team its important to get this things in discution.Hope i didnt ofended anyone, I am a realy competive guy and becasue of that i wanted us to make best pick.
     
  3. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    ^^ you certainly didn't offend me ;-)

    and i am truly listening to your arguments even if it maybe doesn't look so ;-).

    we can get around creative's border pops with "better" city placement, that I am sure with, what can't be matched is the 45 hammers on libraries and when we're at it, it cheapens theatres too (this one is regularly overlooked).

    we can argue all day long on granaries :) the point is that every city needs one, the matter is timing of the build. There is where we slightly disagree

    The talks are not only about financial though... we didn't mention spiritual yet.

    Spiritual is regarded one of strongest diplomatic traits in game, but that's mostly about SP, since in MP diplomacy is artificial.

    What it offers in MP is changing civics "on will", which can be big issue. It can spare one in typical game around 5 turns of anarchy and if you really are up to strong micromanagement you can do things you normally can't do.

    It offers cheaper temples sparing 40H per one which is interesting too.

    Maybe you could test Isabella? Since I just won't...i despise her too much :)
     
  4. tobiasn

    tobiasn Warlord

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    Compelling arguments. Cre/Exp or Spi/Exp in a sea of FIN civs? At least we'll have an extreme advantage when it comes to getting resources online fast as hell. If it also helps with land grabs.. We need more cities than the Fin civs if we want to compete with them in tech, no?
     
  5. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Correct. And not only more cities, but bigger cities we will have with EXP and CRE.
     
  6. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Civics (beyond the first 1-2 times) are timed with GAs so they are still free of anarchy.
     
  7. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    I have invited numerous known strong players amongst the civfanatics and the first big name already replied. Jovan Kukic is going to join us. I asked him to have his voice in our leader picking debates.
     
  8. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd Rest in Peace Black Panther

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    But that is one of the points of SPI. You dont have to time civic changes with Golden Ages, and maybe even more importantly, you don't have to use Great people on Golden Ages if you have some other good uses for them. And as for those first 1-2 swaps... it was really sweet in the test game to switch to slavery right away without anarchy.

    With SPI trait we will be able to just switch to Caste-Pacifism (maybe Mercantilism) as well and Caste-slave a great person anytime we need one and then just switch back to whatever we had before as soon as the Great Person pops out.

    We can do exotic things like switch to Serfdom in the middle of a War to Fast road and catch enemies by surprise, then switch back with no concern whatsoever for Anarchy.

    We can time a bunch of units to pop out at a certain time, and the turn before they pop out, switch to Theocracy/Vassalage so they all get Max promotions, but then switch back so we dont have to actually run those civics.

    We can whip a bunch of units for war, then switch to Theo/Vassalage so they get promos coming out. When whipping is done switch to Caste and Caste slave a Great Artist to culture bomb our enemy putting our culture right next to his city to surprise attack.

    There are just so many nasty surprises we can do with SPI I just don't see giving it up. Plus nobody else has it, and people don't play with it as much, making the surprise factor even more effective. bistrita has said how RB and our other opponents are not the chumps that AMAZON faced, or something along those lines. So that is why I would really like to use tactics that they are not as familiar with and not as ready for.

    We can switch to Slavery even though Emancipation is in play, get our whips and then switch right back to Emancipation.
     
  9. bistrita

    bistrita Warlord

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    Read Sulla pitbos 2 theared to see some war strategies with India or Novice pbem 17 to see if something its uncovered there.I can guarantee are more tha familiar with those and will see those coming and i think actualy i am sure same truth aplies to Ladder team, or france team(moino captain very old ladder player) , and i think someone has jobe in team..so i would not count on that so much.

    Golden age , I dont know how to sayed its the most powerfull tool which civ has ,and for large empire nothing can compare with it, but you have to prepare for it.

    Totaly agree with this one but i am talking here we might be so behind of our pick that will not matter and that India usualy calls for other type of play.

    You mean in 5 turns dont you?
    and usualy by that time i am not relying on slavery anymore.
     
  10. Jovan Kukic

    Jovan Kukic Warlord

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    I don't like unrestricted leaders settings. So, I rarely thought about which leader traits are the best if combined with some different civilization. I haven't read this thread. I only heard that you already decided to take India. I also heard that you discuss about Suryavarman, Huayna Capac and Mansa Musa.
    I think that Pacal is much better than those leaders. For example, if playing 1vs1, Pacal would win most of games vs some of those 3 leaders.
    Financial trait is simply THE BEST, especially for cottagespammers like me :)
    Exp trait gives cheap granaries, cheaper workers and health.
    Suryavarman is good among non-fin leaders, but he is still weaker than most of fin leaders. Financial bonus is even better than nice 2 culture and cheap libraries. Mansa Musa is weaker than Pacal, because spiritual is weaker than exp. Sometimes, slavery is not needed, and you can change most of civics during golden ages. Huayna Capac is weaker than Pacal, because industrious is weaker than exp. Sometimes, you don't need to build wonders to win.
    So I propose Pacal :)
     
  11. grant2004

    grant2004 Citizen

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    I'd love to pick Pacal, he gets the best of both worlds unfortunately the other teams think like you do too, so he's been taken. That's why we're having the debate between financial and expansive leaders, because we can't have both.
     
  12. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    @jovan

    as was stated Pacal is not available to us... out of the 2 viable financial leaders we have to stick with either of Mansa or Huyana

    Well when we're at it...there is no debate about Hannibal (Charismatic+financial), but charismatic is even more gambling on map then any other thing.
     
  13. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd Rest in Peace Black Panther

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    For anyone newly joining, here is the most up to date list of Civ/Leaders

    Team WePlayCiv (Ragnar of __________)
    Team Civforum.de (__________ of Inca)
    Team Apolyton (Elizabeth of Ottoman)
    Team Spanish Apolyton (Boadicea of Zulu)
    Team Civfanatics (__________ of India)
    Team CivPlayers (Darius of Aztec)
    Team Realms Beyond (Pacal of Egypt)
    Team UniversCivilization (Mehmed of Holy Rome)
    Team Civfr (Willem of Maya)

    Right now our Team choice seems to be Mansa Musa, but we are giving everyone time to think about it and run test maps and whatnot to see if those who don't want Mansa Musa can convince the rest of the team.
     
  14. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd Rest in Peace Black Panther

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    So it seems to me (please anybody correct me if I am wrong), that it has basically come down to whether Mansa Musa fans can be convinced to go with Suryavarnam. I say this because these are the leaders that are still getting discussed/mentioned by more than one person:

    Mansa Musa (FIN,SPI) - This is the majority preferred choice at the moment
    Huayana Capac (FIN,IND) - This seems to be the minority preferred choice but it seems that only 1 or 2 players that wants this choice would not be more or equally happy with Mansa Musa
    Suryavarnam (EXP,CRE) - This choice is preferred/advocated by a few players
    Isabella (EXP, SPI) - As far as I can tell, there are a couple players who like Isabella, however all but 1 of these prefer Mansa Musa to Isabella
    Zara Yaqob (CRE,ORG) - This choice is mentioned mainly by players who prefer Suryavarnam, and it seems they prefer Suryavarnam over Zara Yaqob
     
  15. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Yes, I think this reflects the sentiments correct.
     
  16. grant2004

    grant2004 Citizen

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    Took my own try at the test saves, and was clearly not doing as well as you guys. :lol: I'm having trouble making a direct comparison between the various starts because they're being played by different people, and I think even when they're played by the same person, they're learning from their previous attempts. It would be nice if one person, who's better at Rexing than me, could run through both starts with an optimal gameplan, and give a turn by turn breakdown. (Yeah that's a lot to ask, I'd do it, but I'm certain I won't achieve anything near optimal)

    The other big thing to note is this:

    Early contact is going to be hugely important. If we have a coastal start, I can anticipate that there are going to be a lot of people (myself included) clamoring to fit an exploratory workboat into our tech and build order very early. If we're in a landlocked start, the same arguments might go for a quick move to hunting, and a scout. It would be interesting to see a save which took this into account and incorporated getting an early unit out to meet the other teams and begin diplomacy.

    Right now I'm still on Mansa Musa, but am starting to lean to Suryavarnam, Bistrita's save is impressive. I can't be sure if that's all from the benefits of expansive and creative, or if it's just Bistrita's skill.
     
  17. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd Rest in Peace Black Panther

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    Here is a test save of me with Mansa Musa. I did not beeline GW so maybe I should try that now but on turn 50 I have 3 cities an I think 4 cottages being worked. The FIN cottages help alot with the city maintenance costs. All cities are have Warriors. I actually got the 3rd city on turn 41 but I played the save out to get cottages up.

    I havent even looked at bistria's Sury game yet because I didn't want to build on his game until I at least tried it on my own. I'll look at the Sury game now.
     

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  18. tobiasn

    tobiasn Warlord

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    Correct me if I'm wrong.. We're actively advocating two options basically, that caters for two quite different playing styles long term.

    Seems to me like with Sury we'll exploit our UU to the max and have a super-Rex advantage, whereas with Mansa we'll be pretty well rounded and quite flexible in regards to how we want to run our economy.

    With Sury we'll need to get big fast to catch up with our FIN enemies. As far as I can calculate, we'll need to be 30-50% bigger than a FIN civ if they work ~40% Fin adv tiles to make up for their tech speed. If exp+cre+UU makes us able to pull this off, it has obvious other advantages, we'll be more productive and have more resources. It's a gamble but it might be a winning one.

    With Mansa we'll have less trouble in the science dept, but will still fall behind RB that is better geared for a CE early on. The other teams I don't know. We will however need to chase a wonder or religion to make our culture grow. The latter is excellent for happy cap too, but is somewhat suboptimal since our UU needs worker techs to shine.

    Did I understand this right? Personally I like the idea of playing on our UU strength. But what if we don't have room to grow large? Mansa might be safer. I think this is going to be fun either way.
     
  19. bistrita

    bistrita Warlord

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    Actualy Sury its more flexible than mansa musa, if we have stone we can go for Mids and with fast granaries and libraries we can run specealist in no time.If we play with mansa we have to do a hard cotage spam else we can build cotage just in first 3 cities and run too some specealists and gets a fast tech edge. WIth sury more flexibility how we setle, dont spend hamers on monuments.

    Ther are other ways to keep up than having more land :
    faster academy;
    faster corthoses(big cities faster you can whip faster)
    getting cotages up at running faster than others.
    Faster libraies for 25%.
    avoiding religios techs and doing a beline to curency using math.
    getting some key wonders if posible(mids,MoM).
     
  20. socralynnek

    socralynnek Civ & Hattrick addict

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    Mansa Musa is great as allrounder. Won't be a bad decision, I think.

    Surry is great if we have space to expand fast or if we are locked in but have a lot of ressources (where we'll build no cottages)

    I'd rather leave the choice to the ones who will be involved in big strategy, as I won't be (or rather: I'd leave a comment here or there but am not skilled enough to form a plan)

    So I agree that the choice should be one of those two, but who is better depends on the map.
     

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