[LP] Leader Pass Pack 3: Rulers of China Revealed (Coming Jan. 19th)

[Disgustipated]

And I'm doubling down on Qin looking considerably better than Julius Caesar and actually being the best model in this pack

I agree he looks the best on the pack reveal (post #62). I think it's the armor.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Eh, girlish, sweet, and innocent is not how I'd describe Tamar from any of the sources. Maybe if she'd come first she'd have Tomyris's personality...At any rate, here's hoping she's not confusingly sulky and paranoid in her next appearance.

I think the main thing is that her personality would be more faith focused and not the build walls to keep the barbarians out.

So far, they haven't introduced new jersey colors so gold on red works for Yongle but it would have to be blue on gold for Wu. If that's the case, Qin will get the remaining red on gold.

It would be a shame if Qin didn't use the color black, since that was the official color of the Qin dynasty.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Again, at least it's higher quality than NFP.

I'm genuinely curious : what makes the Leader pass of higher quality than NFP? I found most of the abilities of the NFP leaders/civ interesting and fun to play with, with some bold choices that at least were unconventional and forced you into a new gameplay, and the models were also quite nice, without counting new elements like new city-States (with interesting abilities, again), the Preserve (quite the fun district to play with) and other elements.

Is it solely the fact that they reused animations that make you consider NFP of lesser quality than LP? I'd say that the gigantic fingers of Julius Caesar and Lincoln and the strangely thin neck of Nzinga Mbande to balance that, at least.

 

[Zaarin]

I'm genuinely curious : what makes the Leader pass of higher quality than NFP? I found most of the abilities of the NFP leaders/civ interesting and fun to play with, with some bold choices that at least were unconventional and forced you into a new gameplay, and the models were also quite nice, without counting new elements like new city-States (with interesting abilities, again), the Preserve (quite the fun district to play with) and other elements.

Is it solely the fact that they reused animations that make you consider NFP of lesser quality than LP? I'd say that the gigantic fingers of Julius Caesar and Lincoln and the strangely thin neck of Nzinga Mbande to balance that, at least.

Well, yes, all of the art assets of NFP were just of horribly low quality--not just the leaders (though Ba Trieu was okay) but also the new in-game assets. From a design standpoint, I also found all of the new civs boring and gimmicky except Vietnam and Maya. Most of them were "Press the Win Button" civs, and Babylon was just...Babylon might be the worst design in the entire game just for lacking anything remotely Babylonian in its design (once again, shoutout to Port Limes for making something playable out of Babylon). Most of the NFP civs took something a base game civ was good at and cranked it to eleven: Ethiopia absolutely embarrasses the already-slightly-OP Russia in the faith-culture game; Portugal and Maya swim in so much gold they make Mali look impoverished. Etc. The intern-produced art, the gimmicky designs, and the fleet of game-breaking bugs collectively burned me out on Civ6. (For what it's worth, I don't consider Caesar part of LP, and Lincoln looks fine to me. I haven't seen Mbande in game to comment; Kongo is permabanned on account of their music. ) One thing I will say for NFP, though, is Knorr brought his A-game; the NFP themes were his best works IMO.

 

[BigChinggis]

Maybe it's me, but I like the expressions and poses on this new image more than the pack reveal, especially Qin Shi Huang.

Yongle: "I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed."

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Well, yes, all of the art assets of NFP were just of horribly low quality--not just the leaders (though Ba Trieu was okay) but also the new in-game assets. From a design standpoint, I also found all of the new civs boring and gimmicky except Vietnam and Maya. Most of them were "Press the Win Button" civs, and Babylon was just...Babylon might be the worst design in the entire game just for lacking anything remotely Babylonian in its design (once again, shoutout to Port Limes for making something playable out of Babylon). Most of the NFP civs took something a base game civ was good at and cranked it to eleven: Ethiopia absolutely embarrasses the already-slightly-OP Russia in the faith-culture game; Portugal and Maya swim in so much gold they make Mali look impoverished. Etc. The intern-produced art, the gimmicky designs, and the fleet of game-breaking bugs collectively burned me out on Civ6. (For what it's worth, I don't consider Caesar part of LP, and Lincoln looks fine to me. I haven't seen Mbande in game to comment; Kongo is permabanned on account of their music. ) One thing I will say for NFP, though, is Knorr brought his A-game; the NFP themes were his best works IMO.

I'm hoping that Theodora at least makes Byzantium interesting and not as heavily focused on domination. At least hopefully they'll give her a better diplomacy screen than Basil II, which I still can't figure out what he's standing behind. Hopefully she'll be in front of the Hippodrome of Constantinople.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Yongle: "I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed."

Honestly, he really feels like a dude who is just there to support his bros when something went down.

 

[brewgod]

Hello Fellow Civ 6 Fans,

Reading over all of the above, I wonder what Ed Beach is up to weekly and monthly at Firaxis. He is still the Executive Producer for Civ 6 and assumingly for Civ 7? or am I wrong. I too would like to see more Wonders in the game from the LP and see the leaders have more significant UA and UU etc. I typically only play a few different leaders these days. Other than Germany, I don't play any of the original leaders in Civ 6. Enjoyed a few from the NFP (I loved Menelik II and love faith based leaders) and now really like Nader Shah with trade routes from cities to the capital city for growth. I am sure some don't. Living my whole life in the Pacific Northwest, I have always wanted to see more Native (Indian) Civs in the game. Yet I don't know how Firaxis could make them a dominant civ to play long term. One thought I have had was making land bonuses massively huge? Fishing and Farming in particular and huge bonuses for Agriculture and Animal Husbandry and cows, sheep, horses, buffalo etc. having massive production to all cities not just that one city. Overall making them a powerhouse on Domestic production since they have a strong history of living off the land back in their time before the Industrial Revolution came around in the 1880's. I have not played as Poundmaker (Cree) since he was introduced. Yet I like he is there...just not a strong enough player when you need to go against Germany or Greece or England or Norway. I am sure there are many players on this board that disagree with me and play as the Cree or Aztecs regularly. I guess it all comes down to game play style victory condition and difficulty level / skill level.

Also tied into the LP is the lack of newly added achievements? or has Firaxis / Steam included them from NFP and LP and I just don't see it.

Love to see Civ 7 have more wonders and leaders that significantly stick out and can go head to head with anyone where their UA and UU play critical roles in saving your cities and or taking over cities when their city walls are 100+ in strength.

I agree with one comment...if Civ 7 is not announced this year or next Jan 24 then you wonder...what are they really doing. Companies like Firaxis are planning 5 years out to stay in business and what is the next big thing or what do they need to improve on to keep current customers and continue to grow. Hence you would think that Ed and his team have been working on Civ 7 for the past 2 years. Bare minimum having production meetings discussing plans for Civ 7 and what overhaul new game dynamics will be implemented like going to hexes in the past and perhaps keeping the best victory conditions in current Civ 6 and creating 5 new victory conditions and all the fundamentals and infrastructure that is needed for those victory conditions etc.

If Civ 7 is not announced soon then I believe that Firaxis will lose a large percent of their customers and they will move on to other games or get fed up and find new hobbies to peek their interest. I don't consider myself a gamer at all ... I only love playing Civ 6 and always want to play to most current installments and upgrades. Been playing Civ since 1993 with Civ 1 which was on floppy disks.

Let's GO Ed Beach....after the LP has completely rolled out in March give us a huge announcement that Civ 7 will be out for Christmas this year!!!!!

Thoughts?

Brew God

 

[reddishrecue]

Qin Shi Huang, and Wu Zetian are back... wow! As for Yondle I wonder what they will be good at being from the same civilization and everything. Im guessing this was done because the Chinese population is by far one of the or the largest population in the world.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Well, yes, all of the art assets of NFP were just of horribly low quality--not just the leaders (though Ba Trieu was okay) but also the new in-game assets. From a design standpoint, I also found all of the new civs boring and gimmicky except Vietnam and Maya. Most of them were "Press the Win Button" civs, and Babylon was just...Babylon might be the worst design in the entire game just for lacking anything remotely Babylonian in its design (once again, shoutout to Port Limes for making something playable out of Babylon). Most of the NFP civs took something a base game civ was good at and cranked it to eleven: Ethiopia absolutely embarrasses the already-slightly-OP Russia in the faith-culture game; Portugal and Maya swim in so much gold they make Mali look impoverished. Etc. The intern-produced art, the gimmicky designs, and the fleet of game-breaking bugs collectively burned me out on Civ6. (For what it's worth, I don't consider Caesar part of LP, and Lincoln looks fine to me. I haven't seen Mbande in game to comment; Kongo is permabanned on account of their music. ) One thing I will say for NFP, though, is Knorr brought his A-game; the NFP themes were his best works IMO.

Understandable, although I think different perspective from different players would give completely different opinions.

Like, I'm not a competitive player and not a good one neither, so for me overpowered civilizations don't even become that overpowered anyway, and I like to lean more on the roleplay side than competitive side, so I put myself in situations that might not be optimals, but make the game funnier... Like never settling outside of tundra/desert when playing as Laurier/Musa, things like that. So, for me, the NFP Civs were really interesting, although I can understand why they can come of as gimmicky for you. But new Civs, when introduced without new mechanics (like environment or loyalty) should be new, as in they should bring you new ways to explore the game and new strategies to develop, which the Mayas, Babylon, Portugal, Vietnam and others did. For example, I didn't saw Portugal as taking the place of Mali, because for me Mali was not solely the "amass lots of gold" Civ. It was the Desert and lack of production civ, so Portugal didn't stepped at all on its territory (in fact, for me, Portugal was too close to Phoenicia if anything).

After all, making all abilities more "reasonable" and less gimmicky would lean dangerously in the way of Civs who look the same too much, or Civs without anything exciting or newsworthy... Civs like Rome (and I know your hate against Rome ^^).

But I think you're not really fair on the abilities designs... You say NFP were just civs and leaders having old abilities cranked up, but in the Leader Pass, as far as we saw it, there's not a lot of new abilities. Nzinga Mbande is just Lady Six Skies, but without the territory limit; Nader Shah just doubles the Satrapies bonuses; Abraham Lincoln loyalty mechanic is gimmicky and unconsequential, and his units from the IZ is just the Hippodrome's ability; half of Tokugawa's ability is a mix between Dido and LSS... Saladin was good and new but quite bland, and Suleiman is actually one of the most interesting (too bad I don't like the other pieces of the Ottomans' kit). I mean, I love pretty much all the new additions in the LP so far, but because I have very low standards, and for the critics you made against NFP (mechanically speaking, not artistically), I feel that the same could be made for the LP, as in: nothing really new, with reused, overpowered, gimmicky abilities.

I'm sorry if I'm bothering you, but you're someone I highly value the opinion of on this forum, and while it's natural that we'll disagree on several topics (especially on Babylon: I looove Babylon and I truly consider its design as a step in the right direction for forcing players to adopt new strategies and renew their games), disagreement is fruitful when it's understandable on both sides, and I truly want to understand you, especially as someone who generally loved the NFP (so reading you saying that the quality was lower than the LP took me by surprise). I hope you don't mind.

 

[Zaarin]

Like, I'm not a competitive player and not a good one neither, so for me overpowered civilizations don't even become that overpowered anyway, and I like to lean more on the roleplay side than competitive side, so I put myself in situations that might not be optimals, but make the game funnier... Like never settling outside of tundra/desert when playing as Laurier/Musa, things like that. So, for me, the NFP Civs were really interesting, although I can understand why they can come of as gimmicky for you. But new Civs, when introduced without new mechanics (like environment or loyalty) should be new, as in they should bring you new ways to explore the game and new strategies to develop, which the Mayas, Babylon, Portugal, Vietnam and others did. For example, I didn't saw Portugal as taking the place of Mali, because for me Mali was not solely the "amass lots of gold" Civ. It was the Desert and lack of production civ, so Portugal didn't stepped at all on its territory (in fact, for me, Portugal was too close to Phoenicia if anything).

After all, making all abilities more "reasonable" and less gimmicky would lean dangerously in the way of Civs who look the same too much, or Civs without anything exciting or newsworthy...

I'm also a narrative/builder focused player who plays offline on low difficulties. But to me Vietnam was the only NFP civ that was fun (Maya was okay). The others were all just "Press Win Button," which is what I meant by OP. Russia is fun OP. Ethiopia, Portugal, Gran Colombia are not fun OP. (And then there's Gaul. Poor Gaul. The idea was good, but man, playing Gaul was excruciating.) I enjoy unique, different takes on civ--but Mali, Inca, and Maori are good examples on how to do that; the NFP civs, to me, are not.

But I think you're not really fair on the abilities designs... You say NFP were just civs and leaders having old abilities cranked up, but in the Leader Pass, as far as we saw it, there's not a lot of new abilities. Nzinga Mbande is just Lady Six Skies, but without the territory limit; Nader Shah just doubles the Satrapies bonuses; Abraham Lincoln loyalty mechanic is gimmicky and unconsequential, and his units from the IZ is just the Hippodrome's ability; half of Tokugawa's ability is a mix between Dido and LSS... Saladin was good and new but quite bland, and Suleiman is actually one of the most interesting (too bad I don't like the other pieces of the Ottomans' kit). I mean, I love pretty much all the new additions in the LP so far, but because I have very low standards, and for the critics you made against NFP (mechanically speaking, not artistically), I feel that the same could be made for the LP, as in: nothing really new, with reused, overpowered, gimmicky abilities.

My comment about quality was more directed at the LP/NFP art assets than their in-game designs, though NFP did leave me so burned out with Civ6 that Tokugawa was my first game since late 2021 (and maybe my first time enjoying the game since more like mid 2021). The lack of programmers means the new leaders are going to be bland (though I do rather like Tokugawa's design--his isolationist internal trade abilities are exactly what a Sengoku/Tokugawa Japan should look like, and I think I proposed a similar mechanic for them some time in the past). I also think the modes, most of which I tried at least once except Apocalypse and Zombie, kind of soured my opinion of NFP--it's a model I very much don't want to see in the future just because I feel like Civ6's mechanics are already too disjointed, even if some of them (Monopoly--despite being so bug-riddled as to be unusable--and Barbarian Clans) are really good ideas in and of themselves. Another thing to take into consideration is that I feel like GS really raised the bar on both aesthetic and mechanical design standards, and NFP felt like a substantial letdown after that.

especially on Babylon: I looove Babylon and I truly consider its design as a step in the right direction for forcing players to adopt new strategies and renew their games

For context, I'm a huge Bronze/Iron Age Near East nerd. It is my favorite time and place in history. I could fill the entire game roster with Ancient Near Eastern civs (not literally, but I could probably stock the base game with them). Phoenicia and Persia are great, but Sumer was a huge disappointment. So when we finally got a Babylon civ and the most Babylonian thing about it was a Water Mill replacement...you can understand my frustration. Maybe the design is fun, but it could have been attached to any civ without changing anything but the name. It has no flavor at all. I found that extremely, excruciatingly frustrating. Like when your favorite band finally drops a new album and you don't like it.

I hope you don't mind.

Not at all. I enjoy the discussion.

 

[Josephias]

If anyone's curious those colors are defined in the "..\Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\Base\Assets\UI\Colors\PlayerStandardColors.xml" file with the RGB codes. They're basically 28 pre-defined colors that they've mix and matched since the jersey system was first implemented.

In my own mod I delete all the FXS jersey combos in the PlayerColors table and insert my own defined color combos similar to what Prismatic does, but I set up unique colors for every Civ instead of drawing from a pre-defined pool, and then define only one main and one alt jersey. I also alter the Civ unit tints in order to reflect the updated jersey colors.

Although a bit off topic, I'm inclined to share the collage I made with all the custom Jersey combos I applied by messing around with the xxxColors.xml files. (pre Leader Packs). Indeed, one of the small pleasures of the new leader packs, is not to find which Jerseys FXS has decided to give, but to figure out which jerseys I would give myself to the new leaders.

Spoiler :

Note: the way I have selected the jersey is linked to the fact the secondary color impact on the jersey change was changing a lot depending on the first patches after GS. To have actually changing jerseys but avoid too much change, I extended the "base colors" in PlayerStandardColors.xml to have up to 39 background colors (by adding intermediate, or darker/lighter shades), and each of them is only used once with a symbol color. There are some risky combos, but most of them work well in game, at least for me

 

[Futumch]

I also habitually edit the jersey colours of the civs to suit my tastes. I didn't stick with Firaxis' 28 + 4 colours, I added a bunch (about 60?) of new colours to fill the gaps. This gives me a large range of combinations to play with.
Firaxis used the colour Black in the Leader pass (Saladin, jersey #3). There is also a pure white and a couple of blues (XP blue and just plain blue) pre-defined in the colours xml files that Firaxis could probably use if they wanted to.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

As for Yondle I wonder what they will be good at being from the same civilization and everything. Im guessing this was done because the Chinese population is by far one of the or the largest population in the world.

Probably doesn't have anything do with population as much as they have thousands of years of leaders to choose from.
The only thing that I can think of for Yongle is that they go into a scientific direction to differentiate him from the others. We already have culture/ wonder building Qin and trade Kublai with presumably militaristic Qin and espionage/loyalty or amenities Wu incoming.

I'm also a narrative/builder focused player who plays offline on low difficulties. But to me Vietnam was the only NFP civ that was fun (Maya was okay). The others were all just "Press Win Button," which is what I meant by OP. Russia is fun OP. Ethiopia, Portugal, Gran Colombia are not fun OP. (And then there's Gaul. Poor Gaul. The idea was good, but man, playing Gaul was excruciating.) I enjoy unique, different takes on civ--but Mali, Inca, and Maori are good examples on how to do that; the NFP civs, to me, are not.

My comment about quality was more directed at the LP/NFP art assets than their in-game designs, though NFP did leave me so burned out with Civ6 that Tokugawa was my first game since late 2021 (and maybe my first time enjoying the game since more like mid 2021). The lack of programmers means the new leaders are going to be bland (though I do rather like Tokugawa's design--his isolationist internal trade abilities are exactly what a Sengoku/Tokugawa Japan should look like, and I think I proposed a similar mechanic for them some time in the past).

Funnily enough I've felt the same about Vietnam and Tokugawa being my favorites, while also liking Empress Wu's model. Maybe I'm turning into a Far East fan. I mean Australia is even farther east as well.

I also habitually edit the jersey colours of the civs to suit my tastes. I didn't stick with Firaxis' 28 + 4 colours, I added a bunch (about 60?) of new colours to fill the gaps. This gives me a large range of combinations to play with.
Firaxis used the colour Black in the Leader pass (Saladin, jersey #3). There is also a pure white and a couple of blues (XP blue and just plain blue) pre-defined in the colours xml files that Firaxis could probably use if they wanted to.

Yeah, I wasn't happy when they got rid of the blood red color for the Aztecs, the rose red color for Poland, and even the jade green for China. Luckily, I found the colors and are able to put them back in.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

I haven't had much time this year (or motivation) to play Civ, even with these new leaders, but I'm sure Firaxis made the release date of this pack one day before an important due date of mine just to tempt me!

And to that part of my brain telling me "You're not a real CivFanatic if you haven't even completed a game as a Leader Pass leader yet," mark my words! Summer is going to be a Civ marathon.

To comment on the discussion @Zaarin and @Republic of San Montuoso were having:

The NFP Civs were rather interesting to me in how they inverted Civ concepts and made new playstyles. Maya, Vietnam, and Portugal kind of blew our minds when we saw them, mine included. Babylon did too, but it also displays the shortcomings of the NFP: balance and historicity, or lack thereof. Byzantium- as interesting as spreading religion on kills is- is another double offender. Then there's Ethiopia, a stack of Faith bonuses in a trench coat pretending to be a Civ (I mean that lightheartedly), and Kublai who has satisfying synergy but not much else.

Oh, and Gaul just hurts my brain to play as. Muh district adjacencies!

Balance and lack historicity might not bother everyone, but they do bother the game designer in me.

Meanwhile, the historian in me approves of the way that- within their tight restrictions- the Leader Pass leaders try to nod to their history. Tokugawa hits the nail on the head (with his gunbai specifically because the sword would cut it in half). At the same time, though, they look the other way when it comes to synergy. It's actually one of my biggest fears with these new Chinese leaders. They will match Kublai's plainness due to circumstance, but there's a good chance they'll fall short in matching his elegant synergy. The Leader Pass has the issue of slapping loosely related (or unrelated) leader bonuses onto existing Civs. Contrast that with the NFP bunch where the leaders are a core part of the Civ, an issue that Theodora is going to have a difficult time solving.

Or, she might not solve it at all. Civ VI's last hurrah has been limited to a final whimper in some ways.

Anyway, the design philosophies behind NFP and the Leader Pass are opposites. As for which I prefer, it's the option with new music.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Meanwhile, the historian in me approves of the way that- within their tight restrictions- the Leader Pass leaders try to nod to their history. Tokugawa hits the nail on the head (with his gunbai specifically because the sword would cut it in half). At the same time, though, they look the other way when it comes to synergy. It's actually one of my biggest fears with these new Chinese leaders. They will match Kublai's plainness due to circumstance, but there's a good chance they'll fall short in matching his elegant synergy. The Leader Pass has the issue of slapping loosely related (or unrelated) leader bonuses onto existing Civs. Contrast that with the NFP bunch where the leaders are a core part of the Civ, an issue that Theodora is going to have a difficult time solving.

Even though I love Empress Wu coming, I do feel like she might be the least synergistic just because nothing about China right now deals with espionage/loyalty, but that's not really a problem. Qin might have something to do with the already existing Great Wall and Yongle with eurekas/inspiration.

As for Byzantium I'm sure when they designed them, they had in mind that Basil II would be their only leader, not knowing of a future leader's pass with Theodora. That being said, she could use that civ ability for defensive purposes as the only offensive abilities are under Basil.

 

[AntSou]

The Leader Pass has the issue of slapping loosely related (or unrelated) leader bonuses onto existing Civs. It's actually one of my biggest fears with these new Chinese leaders.

Given how simple the mechanical aspect of introducing abilities into the game is, especially since they're only using existing code, there's some hope they've read the complaints and put a bit more effort into designing them (which would be the most time consuming aspect).

Besides, three new leaders for China means they're going out of their way to please that particular market. So they might put some extra effort into it.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

I'm also a narrative/builder focused player who plays offline on low difficulties. But to me Vietnam was the only NFP civ that was fun (Maya was okay). The others were all just "Press Win Button," which is what I meant by OP. Russia is fun OP. Ethiopia, Portugal, Gran Colombia are not fun OP. (And then there's Gaul. Poor Gaul. The idea was good, but man, playing Gaul was excruciating.) I enjoy unique, different takes on civ--but Mali, Inca, and Maori are good examples on how to do that; the NFP civs, to me, are not.


My comment about quality was more directed at the LP/NFP art assets than their in-game designs, though NFP did leave me so burned out with Civ6 that Tokugawa was my first game since late 2021 (and maybe my first time enjoying the game since more like mid 2021). The lack of programmers means the new leaders are going to be bland (though I do rather like Tokugawa's design--his isolationist internal trade abilities are exactly what a Sengoku/Tokugawa Japan should look like, and I think I proposed a similar mechanic for them some time in the past). I also think the modes, most of which I tried at least once except Apocalypse and Zombie, kind of soured my opinion of NFP--it's a model I very much don't want to see in the future just because I feel like Civ6's mechanics are already too disjointed, even if some of them (Monopoly--despite being so bug-riddled as to be unusable--and Barbarian Clans) are really good ideas in and of themselves. Another thing to take into consideration is that I feel like GS really raised the bar on both aesthetic and mechanical design standards, and NFP felt like a substantial letdown after that.


For context, I'm a huge Bronze/Iron Age Near East nerd. It is my favorite time and place in history. I could fill the entire game roster with Ancient Near Eastern civs (not literally, but I could probably stock the base game with them). Phoenicia and Persia are great, but Sumer was a huge disappointment. So when we finally got a Babylon civ and the most Babylonian thing about it was a Water Mill replacement...you can understand my frustration. Maybe the design is fun, but it could have been attached to any civ without changing anything but the name. It has no flavor at all. I found that extremely, excruciatingly frustrating. Like when your favorite band finally drops a new album and you don't like it.


Not at all. I enjoy the discussion.

Thanks a lot ! I understand more your point of view

And the conclusion I get is that it's definitely a question of personal affinities. I didn't felt Portugal or Ethiopia to be "press button to win" Civs, but perhaps I'm definitely a lousy gamer But get what you mean: the NFP civs might have lean a little too much into their gimmicks. I didn't mind, but, again, it boils down to personal preferences.

Just for Babylon: I understand that the kit (except the Palgum) doesn't really feel Babylonian, especially to a nerd like you I guess. However, the Babylon ability is very interesting because, IMO, it represents in a much more realistic manner how technological progress was made until the advent of the scientific method: you didn't discovered Astrology because you put a bunch of people in a library searching for it, you discovered it because you saw natural wonders, looked up and wondered what other beautiful mysteries lie above our head. Babylon having this ability to represent how scientific research was performed in those first civilizations was an interesting but quite fitting choice. Perhaps not Babylonian per se, but at least it has an Ancient vibe. But I understand the frustration of having a Babylonian civ (such a rich culture) boiled down to something so... general. But, frankly, where I first tried Babylon, it was one of the funniest game I had in a while.

(But I understand your Babylonian frustration: I had the same when I discovered Wilhelmina's ability).

I hope they will think about it for the future. Like, until you discovered the Scientific Method tech, your research would be down like Babylon (or close to; Eurekas give 95% of the tech, but your science output is disminished by 50%), and once you get to Scientific Method, eurekas give only 40% but your science output is doubled.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Just for Babylon: I understand that the kit (except the Palgum) doesn't really feel Babylonian, especially to a nerd like you I guess. However, the Babylon ability is very interesting because, IMO, it represents in a much more realistic manner how technological progress was made until the advent of the scientific method: you didn't discovered Astrology because you put a bunch of people in a library searching for it, you discovered it because you saw natural wonders, looked up and wondered what other beautiful mysteries lie above our head. Babylon having this ability to represent how scientific research was performed in those first civilizations was an interesting but quite fitting choice. Perhaps not Babylonian per se, but at least it has an Ancient vibe. But I understand the frustration of having a Babylonian civ (such a rich culture) boiled down to something so... general. But, frankly, where I first tried Babylon, it was one of the funniest game I had in a while.

Ironically that's my favorite part about Babylon.
The Palgum feels too basic, the UU is actually Assyrian, and Hammurabi doesn't start the game with Code of Laws.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

The Empress