Leaders: Part 2

[agc28]

I have a lot of input, but I have one burning question about Maya

Most of you say that Maya is in good shape..but I don't understand it. GEM added currency as a prerequisite for theology, so there is no easy way for Maya to beeline theology now. This seems like a huge nerf on Maya, which didn't strike me as a particularly strong civilization to begin with.

I think the UB is buffed, but the change seemed miniscule at best? I feel like I would have to massively build cities while keeping the population of every single city at 1, in order to compensate for the theology-nerf while keeping happiness in good shape. This doesn't sound like fun to me..=(

EDIT: Maya used to be able to beeline theology without having to go down archery or animal husbandry or mining. I thought this was the whole meaning behind atlatlist, which is an archer with no tech requirement. Maya used to be able to go down theology without having to research archery, but still able to build the archer-replacement for defense. Now the unique atlatlist seems like a pointless unit.

 

[mitsho]

Um, no. You're putting like half the complexity in the game in one civilization

Did you really need to quote his whole post for this rather harsh sentence? I tried to say a similar ciritique a few posts above you, while providing an explanation and not filling the thread with reposts...

@agc28, Well, to be honest, I haven't played with the Maya for a while, but if Theology now isn't the best tech to trigger the UA, we can always move it to another tech. After all, the idea is that the UA is balanced enough that you can beeline for it and profit more.

 

[Babri]

I really like the German UA idea (for its unique flavour) as well the panzers. Wish there was a button for +rep.

BTW what kind of bonus would you plan to give to prototypes? Considerable strength bonus against backward units or just some plain bonus?

Nevertheless it will have a great synergy with the panzers.

Also hopelites movement bonus sounds a bit out of place. Correct me if I am wrong but weren't hopelites kind of strong but slow type of units? And IMHO CC should keep their strength bonus along with their +moves, otherwise they might become kind of boring.

 

[bagas12]

Also hopelites movement bonus sounds a bit out of place. Correct me if I am wrong but weren't hopelites kind of strong but slow type of units? And IMHO CC should keep their strength bonus along with their +moves, otherwise they might become kind of boring.

Actualy no, the hoplites are as fast as any heavy infantary in their time, only peltasts and auxilia like slinger or archers are faster. But i too feel it is out of place, some good bonus is enough for them, maybe along the + melee bonus they could have some sort of fortification bonus too.

 

[AlpsStranger]

Did you really need to quote his whole post for this rather harsh sentence? I tried to say a similar ciritique a few posts above you, while providing an explanation and not filling the thread with reposts...

I apologize. I'm too accustomed to posting on the aptly-named Tavern on here. So I suddenly find myself in polite society again and, wham, barstool to the side of the head

 

[Eiger2112]

Ok, so I haven't read the thread yet... I got bogged down reading through the 1st list, and noting ideas in a text file. I didn't see that there were already so many replies.

But here are my initial thoughts, and then I'll read through the rest of the thread.

Phoenician – If you give civilian units the early ability to Embark, then maybe also give settler/worker defense only combat ability, too? Maybe as powerful as a scout.

Ottoman – Barbary Port could replace Market instead: maybe it ‘steals’ a resource being traded by nearby Civ or CS? Or have it provide a unique resource (call it “Pirate Booty”! ) but that’s like your Carthage idea.

Babylon – Things that come to mind for Babylon are the huge triple walls, their early irrigation (I think Egypt depended more on the natural flooding of the Nile?) of the Tigris and Euphrates, and Hammurabi.
- Maybe consider non-hill tiles within 2 tiles of a river to have a source of fresh water, if moddable?
- Hammurabi’s Code: UA - Maybe provide a free courthouse (even before tech would normally unlock it?) when Babylon conquers a city? UB - Or a courthouse with better effects?

Greece - One of my favorite ancient civilizations, but one which I’ve never liked much in Civ 5. And, I think we all know that Alexander and his companion cavalry – or cavalry of any sort - is Macedonian, not Greek. But I’ll let this slide since Alexander ‘borrowed’ the style of Greek hoplites, and used the two together to great affect.
- Comp Cavalry was indeed stronger than ‘normal’ cavalry. If you hesitate to give them more base combat strength give them a higher flanking bonus, or maybe a bonus when used in conjunction specifically with a Hoplite (Hammer & Anvil). Or can you somehow script a ‘status effect’? For example, when they attack an enemy for the first time, that enemy get’s a ‘broken lines’ or ‘in disarray’, like a temporary promotion (demotion), which would then give them a negative in further combat for 2 turns.
- And I always hated Alexander’s UA. Sure, he was magnanimous to his CONQUERED enemies, allowing them to keep their religion, culture, etc as long as they accepted his rule. But I don’t think he was well liked by city states or any other states that he had not yet conquered because they knew that he wanted to. His Vanilla UA makes him seem like some sort of diplomat rather than a conqueror. Gah! Maybe give him better bonuses to gold and science from puppeted cities (not just CSs), and one less unhappiness? Because that is in essence how he’d handle a conquered city – install a governor, change little else, and just collect tribute. I’d even be ok with him getting FULL gold/science output, which would truly change his gameplay, since early puppeting wouldn’t be just an interim solution until you had the happiness to annex.

India - Now I can’t say that I’m thrilled with either Vanilla or GEM’s UA for India, but NOT because they’re bad ideas. Both are actually pretty cool UAs. But both seem to want to encourage/support a Tall and Narrow empire, but NEITHER actually enforces the narrow part. Both affect growth, period, narrow or not. And I’m not even arguing that India, historically, was particularly narrow. But to give a unique gameplay flavor, I’d like to see one Leader/Civ that really lends itself to tall and NARROW. Maybe this makes more sense for Babylon, or some other civ? But to this end, please consider some kind of UA that gives growth but keeps it narrow. But because most UAs don’t have ANY negative, the positive in this case should be pretty positive. Maybe a great free building in your 1st 3 to 5 cities (based on map size) that increase growth (through food or an effect like aquaduct, and increase happiness). This should be awarded from Turn 0, which would increase its value. Then increase his unhappiness from additional cities, but without lower unhappiness for population (the bad part of vanilla without the good)?

Iroquois: Maybe instead of a forest movement bonus UA (though I like the UU and UB) their UA completely forgoes the improvement of tiles, but without giving them a disadvantage? “One with Nature”. Maybe they’d automatically get better yields from base terrain without having to improve it, as soon as they reach particular techs? Instead of getting roads at some point, they’d get free traderoutes with a harbor-like (but landlocked) building. Another tech not far after roads would give bonus movement in cultural borders, instead of roads. This’d be hard to mod, I’d guess, but a definitely new way to play. Your civ would be an oasis of untouched nature – no ugly roads, railroads, farms, mines or ANYTHING (except perhaps GP improvements).

Rome: I really like your Glory of Rome idea. All conquests improve the capital. Rome’s old UA (though I liked it), encouraged more equal cities, while historically it’d be closer to your idea. But maybe don’t limit it to Tech and Culture? The city of Rome had a HUGE numbers of slaves. Maybe increase capital Pop by 1 with each conquest as well? But maybe re-cycle Rome's old UA for some other leader/civ? In fact, it might work for the U.S. ("Replaceable Parts").


Alright, now I'm going to read all your great ideas!


Cheers, Eiger

 

[mystikx21]

then maybe also give settler/worker defense only combat ability, too?

- Why? This wasn't that useful for a UU settler. They already defend when embarked as I recall, so it's hard to see how it's necessary when they're just moving around. Scouts are cheaper if you need scouts. Workers should be building things, and settlers should be settling places you've already explored rather than stumbling around looking for a good spot in the dark. The advantage of early embarking for them is rapid island settlement or expansion to new small continents, etc. I think that's pretty strong as it is (from playing Polynesia) and changes your play style.

But maybe re-cycle Rome's old UA for some other leader/civ?

- I agree here, I liked this UA for a wide styled empire. The difference with Rome was that Rome was a dictatorship at its peak. Dictatorships aren't "wide", they have huge capitals instead.

I think the Iroquois already have a fairly interesting UA. You don't need as many roads for both military support and early trade and they have distinct advantages in forest/jungle. I also don't think the Iroquois were "one with nature" types. They were farmers and practiced clear-cutting to grow maize and squash. I could see an advantage for camp improvements from them however. They were very good at dividing labor to hunting, trade, and agriculture.

 

[mitsho]

@Alps_Stranger, maybe I was a bit harsh myself, but I dislike unnecessary quotes, means only that I need to scroll more the next time...

@Thal can you provide the excel file you used for the first post? The one in the newest download version is old. And I feel I can comment on all of them easier in such a file


There are some interesting ideas in your text, Eiger. I'm not sure how the Iroquois UA would work (which improvement would it chose?), but the basic idea of having a untouched empire is certainly distinct! However keep in mind that the leader doesn't define the civ. It's perfectly fine to have Alexander as a leader and an Athenian or Spartan UU or UB if we want so. The old UA just didn't fit with Alex, but it fit very well with Greece in general But it's not really active or very good with the new diplomatic system so I'm okay with it getting missed...

 

[mystikx21]

Some other notes
1) I don't know that hoplites should be faster. Being stronger and more useful against swords/warriors (and/or possibly vanguards) should be sufficient.
2) I don't understand an affection for the German prototypes idea. I don't think this changes what you do so much as gives you something you'd already do. Unless it has particular advantages as a unit promotion given only to that first unit in a tier, which then requires us to come up with some basis and some effect to grant....

Being able to both build and tech faster with combined specialists seems to accomplish prototyping anyway by getting access to new units sooner and getting them up and running around quicker. I think this applies to the panzer too, it's fine where it was without being earlier because if you're playing as Germany you should be getting to them sooner anyway with efficient science and construction. Maybe they could get reduced upgrade costs alongside the current UA function? But that's fairly boring.

 

[sukritact]

Hmmm.....

France: How is the UU different from Korea's? It just feels like a later version of the Korean UU.

Germany: Can we not call it "Gutenberg Press"? it sound gimmicky. Can we call it a "Printer" use the German word for "Printing Press?"

India: You know my opinion on eliminating the UU. Regardless, Fire Altar does sound gimmicky. I'd prefer the earlier proposed name: Mandir.

Ottomans: Just a random naming suggestion, how about "Kanuni" or "The Lawgiver" for the UA?

Everything else sounds excellent.

 

[Babri]

Some other notes
1) I don't know that hoplites should be faster. Being stronger and more useful against swords/warriors (and/or possibly vanguards) should be sufficient.

Agreed. Maybe a defensive bonus like fortification as somebody mentioned.

2) I don't understand an affection for the German prototypes idea. I don't think this changes what you do so much as gives you something you'd already do. Unless it has particular advantages as a unit promotion given only to that first unit in a tier, which then requires us to come up with some basis and some effect to grant....

Being able to both build and tech faster with combined specialists seems to accomplish prototyping anyway by getting access to new units sooner and getting them up and running around quicker. I think this applies to the panzer too, it's fine where it was without being earlier because if you're playing as Germany you should be getting to them sooner anyway with efficient science and construction. Maybe they could get reduced upgrade costs alongside the current UA function? But that's fairly boring.

Actually the idea of prototype is quite interesting. We might need to put a science boost or cheaper military techs in UA so that Germans get their hands on new toys fairly quickly.

The specialist bonuses like some suggested for the UA are actually a bit boring because they sound kind of generic. Some wonders have them as well so I would suggest to stick with the prototype idea & modify the UA to make it more powerful & useful.


Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 2

 

[mystikx21]

That's the thing though, I don't know that prototyping sounds anything different than a generic bonus to me. As I said, I don't understand the affection for it.

The specialist bonus is (or can be) pretty strong and encourages using them interchangeably as desired for more production/science from the near the beginning of the game where the wonder/policy effects are much later. A science and production bonus like that effectively is prototyping already by faster access to new units/tech, with the advantage of getting more GPs (of the best two), without making these military techs cheaper by default (another option entirely).

We can come up with something more interesting still I'm sure but it's been kicked around for a couple months now. These seem to be the only two with any traction so far and they seem to have formed separate camps.

France: How is the UU different from Korea's? It just feels like a later version of the Korean UU.

- Agreed. If we're making another unique siege unit, it shouldn't be the same as the design (but not implementation) for the Koreans.

 

[Ahriman]

As seems usual lately, I agree with mystikx. I like the specialist bonus for Germany, the prototype bonus seems weird. I have no particular objection to a printer UB, but it isn't that exciting, and people haven't really described what it should do. A GPP bonus might synergize nicely with the specialist bonuses. But I also have no particular objection to a Landsknecht unit, but I don't think it should be a "cheap" unit, I'd rather see it as a quality unit, and I don't really like that it is early medieval, whereas in reality its more Renaissance.

I think hoplites are fine as tough spearmen, though they need something that gives long-term value.
A fortification bonus is pretty weak, and doesn't really make sense; they are fighters in the field, not behind walls.

If Greece is changing to a wide/culture civ, which I think makes sense for hellenism, then I suggest:
Drop the companion cavalry (they're very narrow for the whole hellenic world) and create a UB library (Gymnasium) or Theater (Odeon).
Make the hoplite a tough spearman that starts with the defense bonus that spearman used to have (but dropped because it overlapped with vanguards).
I think this works well: a wide/expansive civ benefits from a tough defensive unit, and some long-term utility is retained by having the upgrade carry over into upgrades.
And then change Alexander's personality accordingly.

Another possibility would be an open terrain bonus; a phalanx doesn't really work well in rough terrain.

 

[Tomice]

As discussed in previous threads, a UU settler is very weak, because it only ever lasts a few turns, and defending settlers is not really that big a burden.

Yes, I think the unique settler idea is dead by now. But what he also suggested - a unique scout that can found cities - sounds pretty awesome, if not overpowered!

It's a dirt-cheap unit you have around anyway. It would be pretty interesting to just found cities anywhere you find a nice spot instantly. Happiness would still limit expansion, not sure if it would be enough. IMO this would also eliminate the problem of settler UU's being only around for 5-10 turns before being "consumed". It could also be very interesting militarily if you could easily insta-place cities as strongholds.




I haven't time now to comment all proposals, but I really like the carthage and the idea behind it (both vanilla and your suggestion). I played them a few times already.

The mountain crossing UA is pretty stupid, however.
You often end up hurting yourself more than profiting. I really use automated units rarely, but I still ended up killing several units due to mountains. There's only a popup if the unit dies in the mountains, not if it's hurt there. I'd remove this part of the UA entirely. I can't remember ever having found any cool use for it in practical gameplay.

I'm also not sure if only letting settlers/workers embark early will be strong enough. From a feeling I'd extend it to scouts, too.
Will I use the helpless, expensive civilian units to search for a decent spot (thinking psychologically as well)? Will it be effective to have them searching around aimlessly for 10-20 turns or more instead of settling a mainland spot my scout found before? Aren't the island settling spots somewhat "safe" from other civs since they can't reach them early? Won't I snatch away the spots most likely to be taken by my neighbours instead?

But I guess it should be tried first and then discussed further. BTW, I'm not criticising the concept ( I think it's really cool and unique), I'm only sceptical if the particular implementation will be strong enough.

 

[mitsho]

A Scout that can found cities? Definately too strong since it's available from turn 0 and is dirt cheap. The ability always felt gimmicky and strong on the conquistador which came much later. No, I'd guess the pioneer fort is okay.

As for Carthage and mountains, the penalty shouldn't be as harsh (50%) as they made it. 20% would be enough I'd say. It's only a problem if you could hide in the mountains, but cities and ranged units can still reach you there...

Austria
What if instead of generic cavalry UU we give them the Gebirgsjaeger, a mountain infantry unit? It's a troop that did exist and works well with the ski infantry graphic (not really, but it's ok). A defensive UU may also be more helpful to defend that bought CS-empire and still be worth it if you're playing aggresively. Rough Terrain bonus and can enter mountains, I'd say. I'd also change the Coffee House to a Publishing House UB, seems to fit better. Replace the GP-bonus with a culture per population bonus, so that the

Sweden
Folkskola can receive the additional GP bonus and it still being unique More GP's fit better with a farm-centered empire as Sweden.

Carthage
Civilian Unit Embarkment may just be something we need to test. I agree that I will often not want to colonize "into the dark", but then if we allow scouts to enter water, the human player will use that ability to survive barbs and other stuff. Exploration can be quite faster with that, so I'd rather not include scouts. What the "civilian" only factor basically just means is that you should build one or two ships to go with that early settlement.

Greece
I believe that the 3 movement on hoplites was more a gameplay thing than a historical idea. Faster movement is one of the more active and strong bonuses we can give after all. But Ahriman's proposal above seems pretty logical to me. But what benefit for such an ub? more science or culture? or gold? or more great people? Not sure...

Denmark
I'd like to make them the ultimate non-horse (sea-based) conquest civ. Besides the Berserker, they could have a Huscarl UU. But with Greece we have seen that two UU at the same time devalue each other, so maybe it's best if those would upgrade into each other. The second could have as a main bonus cheaper upgrade costs helping out the conquest player in monetary needs?

Celts
Let's make them the ultimate religion civ. Referencing the Hiberno-Scottish Mission (you can wiki it yourself ), what about a Travelling Monk UU: cheaper missionary with double speed? Can't be worse than the Ceilidh Hall... I'd also vote to extend their faith from forests to jungles as well.

India
Prefer Mandir over Fire Altar, Elephant can go since we have quite a few Elephant UU's already. Not sure we need two population boosts on UA and UB, but I'd prefer Public Baths as a name over Indus Sanitation.

Russia
seems quite weak right now, not sure how much of a bonus starting with 2-tile borders really is, after all, the other civs get there eventually as well. But I don't have a better proposal right now.

Germany
I'm torn on the issue of Prussian Virtues vs. Prototypes, mainly because I don't know what the complete proposal is as the chart in the op is still cut off! (It's also not in the files). So I can't say much before I have not seen that

Old Effects
I always liked the double yields from Natural Wonders spain had. Was a very fun bonus. I'm torn however which civ could get this bonus, combined with a bonuses against and conquering City States of course? Maybe the Ottomans and their use of vassal states? Would also fit with a naval style since a lot of city states tend to be coastal, not?

 

[Ahriman]

. But what benefit for such an ub? more science or culture? or gold? or more great people? Not sure...

I could see more flat science from the Gymnasium, but that might overlap too much with China. Happiness from the odeon is possible, and would help with the Wide/expansive playstyle supported by the culture UA.
I agree 3 move hoplites are weird.

cheaper missionary with double speed? Can't be worse than the Ceilidh Hall

I'd disagree with this. A missionary boost would be very weak, while

I think the Celts giving early religion is good, I don't think they need more religious things in the midgame. And early game I find I almost only ever need 1-2 missionaries. The Ceilidh hall isn't amazing, but more happiness is always useful.

Prefer Mandir over Fire Altar

Agree.

I'd like to make them the ultimate non-horse (sea-based) conquest civ

I think we can be narrower than this. I don't think they should have super-good naval units; I think England should have them beat there. I think we want them to be sea-raiders, more than anything else we want them to be about using embarked land units.

seems quite weak right now, not sure how much of a bonus starting with 2-tile borders really is

I think it would be useful, and I think the extra quantity of strategics has been boosted as we have made resources more rare.

I always liked the double yields from Natural Wonders spain had. Was a very fun bonus.

Really? I always thought it looked weak and hit-or-miss. But the Spanish abilities never really appealed to me, so I've literally never played them.

 

[Brannock]

Do the Spanish have a bias for spawning near Natural Wonders? I feel like they do, but this might be confirmation bias.

 

[Eiger2112]

I'll respond to feedback for a few of my ideas in different posts. But there are a lot of GREAT ideas here, and I'm really looking forward to playing with some of these new leaders So I'll start with Alex...

Point taken regarding the fact that a Civ and a Leader aren’t one and the same. Greece’s old UA certainly DID match Greece, even though it was a bad fit for Alexander. But seeing as it was kind of boring, making the UA something like 0-Unhappiness-Puppets would be interesting. It would allow Alex to just keep moving across the map, and leave a string of Puppets behind him. He’d still have to fight attrition, somehow, so his original cities would have to supply units, which is historically accurate and would serve to rein in this otherwise powerful ability. This is one that would definitely require playtesting.

An alternative could be called “Hammer and Anvil”… instead of a bonus just to Comp Cavalry and Hoplites, maybe give him a universal bonus when he has a mobile unit adjacent to an infantry unit? He could use this with a Hoplite and Comp Cavalry, or with a Tank and a Rifleman for later game Conquering. And then we could drop comp cavalry, as some have suggested. I kind of like the IDEA of two UUs in the same era, but I see how in practice it’s kind of hard to take full advantage of.

And I'd like this Hammer/Anvil idea even better if it wasn't "adjacent", but the TARGET unit was adjacent to both, if that is doable? Or is the tile where the battle takes place already the target tile for adjacent-ivity, when attacking? But regardless, it would be nice to allow the cavalry (or tank) to be behind the target unit, rather than just beside the infantry. I have dreams of a random map having a one-tile width path through mountains. I'd station my hoplites in this path vs. a swarm of invading Persian warriors and sentinels. Then to re-write history send my comp cavalry (which I know Leonidas didn't have) around the mountains via another path to smash into the evil Persians from behind! Woo hoo!

Cheers, Eiger

 

[pthmix]

...

Old Effects
I always liked the double yields from Natural Wonders spain had. Was a very fun bonus. I'm torn however which civ could get this bonus, combined with a bonuses against and conquering City States of course? Maybe the Ottomans and their use of vassal states? Would also fit with a naval style since a lot of city states tend to be coastal, not?

Wouldn't this make more sense as a religious pantheon? Or as a world wonder (if a "can only be built if a natural wonder is in city range" condition is possible/programmable)?

 

[Eiger2112]

Now let me explain my Iroquois idea “One with Nature” a bit more: Instead of a bonus just to movement in forests, he’d need no improvements at all, and wouldn’t have to build Workers. For each type of terrain, he’d get a bonus after building something in the nearest city, or automatically when he researched a certain Tech. The Tech that unlocks the bonus would be maybe one tech later than the tech that would normally allow the improvement.

But once the building is built, or the tech is researched, ALL the terrain of a certain type would be ‘improved’ but with no graphic on the tile, and with no need for a worker. Instead of roads, all units in cultural borders would move faster and with no terrain effects. Instead of Farms, all Grassland tiles would get a food bonus. Instead of Mines, all hills would get a production bonus. And we wouldn’t necessarily have to stick to the standard improvements and make all grassland “farm-like”. We could balance them just for the Iroquois so average terrain would give a mix of yields, Food, Prod, Gold, etc.

Ok, so I don’t know my Native Americans - I didn’t know the Iroquois were farmers. But I still like this idea! Because admit it… once you’ve decided a few hundred times how to improve certain types of terrain, managing workers is kind of tedious. And the map you end up with isn’t as pretty as the map that your Scout originally uncovers. Yes, worker management and developing pristine terrain into productive-but-uglier land is what Civ is all about, but wouldn’t it be nice if you could pick a civ once in a while and do it differently?

This would be more time consuming to mod... it'd require several UBs, and adding several *-type effects to techs to unlock the various bonuses, and later techs (like fertilizer) to add even more bonuses to match the late game improved improvements. And the balancing would require play-testing. But it would be a fresh Civ experience

Now a question for you more experienced GEMers: How is the Worker AI? Can I safely automate them? I haven't trusted that feature since it was introduced when... Civ 2?

Cheers, Eiger